A note of caution using Black Mag 3 in 45 cal ML's
01-12-2006, 09:30 AM
#11
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,092
RE: A note of caution using Black Mag 3 in 45 cal ML's
Cayugad, ask your friend to shake the containers to make sure the powder is STILL powder. Two bottles that I got had solidified. Managed to get them both back into powder form but it was a hassle andlikelynot the safest thingever done. Just checked the remaining full container and it remains powdery with a few chunks (so it sounds to my hearing), the few chunks are okay as small chunks break up easily.
01-12-2006, 12:13 PM
#12
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
RE: A note of caution using Black Mag 3 in 45 cal ML's
Well I called the store and they still have Black Mag 3 in stock for $29.99 a pound. They also have American Pioneer Powder 3fand Triple Se7en 3fin stock too. So I will be sure and tell my nephew to shake the container and listen to make sure the powder "sounds" loose in there. I figure its a good time to have him pick me up 1000 more #11 caps and 500 of the #10 caps also. No hazmat fee is what I like. A couple pounds of each should be good for testing.
Although Cabela's is a great store, the young lady I talked to, was very polite and tried to be helpful but wasnot the most knowledgeable person when it came to muzzleloader supplies. I should have taped the phone call. You people would not believe some of the responses to my questions I gotfrom her...
No matter ... as long as I get my powder.
Although Cabela's is a great store, the young lady I talked to, was very polite and tried to be helpful but wasnot the most knowledgeable person when it came to muzzleloader supplies. I should have taped the phone call. You people would not believe some of the responses to my questions I gotfrom her...
No matter ... as long as I get my powder.
01-12-2006, 06:25 PM
#13
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 1,081
RE: A note of caution using Black Mag 3 in 45 cal ML's
In refrence to the pressure, you can't always estimate the pressure produced by a powder by comparing it to another powder. The burning characteristics are different so the pressure will be different. Slower burning powders will give higher velocities at a given pressure than faster burning powders at the same pressure. I see this all the time when reloading for my CF rifles. As mentioned above, Blackmag3 is slower than regular black, so is 777. I would expect thevelocities on both of these powders to be higher than black at the same pressure level. The reason is the powder takes longer to reach max pressure and pushes the projectile for a longer time, max pressure occures with the bullet further down the bore so there is more area to spread the pressure across, thereforeequal PSI spread over more area yeilds higher velocities.
Any thoughts along this line?
Any thoughts along this line?
01-12-2006, 06:43 PM
#14
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
RE: A note of caution using Black Mag 3 in 45 cal ML's
I want to see if this stuff will shoot out of flintlocks like they claim. I tried Pinnacle and discovered it will but not real well. So now we will play with some Black Mag 3. I will start by backing off the charges about 20% for safety sake.
01-12-2006, 09:05 PM
#15
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location:
Posts: 1,470
RE: A note of caution using Black Mag 3 in 45 cal ML's
dmurphy317 said:
In refrence to the pressure, you can't always estimate the pressure produced by a powder by comparing it to another powder. The burning characteristics are different so the pressure will be different. Slower burning powders will give higher velocities at a given pressure than faster burning powders at the same pressure. I see this all the time when reloading for my CF rifles. As mentioned above, Blackmag3 is slower than regular black, so is 777. I would expect thevelocities on both of these powders to be higher than black at the same pressure level. The reason is the powder takes longer to reach max pressure and pushes the projectile for a longer time, max pressure occures with the bullet further down the bore so there is more area to spread the pressure across, thereforeequal PSI spread over more area yeilds higher velocities.
Any thoughts along this line?
Exactly, which is why BlackMag would generally produce lower pressures than blackpowder or other substitutes. What becomes important is this. In .45 cal. the bore are is reduced byaround 20% as compared with .50 cal. This means for the same weight bullet, pressures in the .45 cal must be greater to supply the same force to accelerate this bullet along the same acceleration curve. Then as the bullet moves down the bore the volume of the breech gases doesn't increase as fast (at similar velocities). What does this mean? The 45 cal is a higher pressure animal.
Allow be to say this, I don't know if Varget is slower than BM3 but Isuspect that it is. I think that Varget contains more energy than BM3 but it releases that energy slower. I don't think Varget would reliably ignite with a percussion cap but BM3 can. So I think Varget is a slower powder.
The pressure curve determines the energy of the bullet because it determines the forces on the bullet. When a less energetic powder produces equivalent energies in projectiles then there can only be one answer, the less energetic powder has burned faster, elevating pressures above that of the slower powderwith theslower, more energeticpowder is still burning when the projectile leaves the muzzle.
If BM3 contains as much potential for energy as Varget, then it is even more dangerous than I havesuspected. Wherea guy gets into catastrophic problems is when there is too much energy in the breach volume and there is no where to go with it. When this happens, one has a grenade, bomb, what ever you wish to call it.
The thing I was most concerned about is this. Magkor claims that the pressures are half of Black powder. I am not sure this is true in the 45 cal. So when Magkor is claiming that pressures are half of black powder and that 120 grain loads and 400 grain bullet are ok in .45 cal., then it seems that people may begin to draw bad, very bad, conclusions from this marketing speak. I have done the best I can and only wish to caution. Anyone is free take from this what they will.
Happy Hunting, Phil
In refrence to the pressure, you can't always estimate the pressure produced by a powder by comparing it to another powder. The burning characteristics are different so the pressure will be different. Slower burning powders will give higher velocities at a given pressure than faster burning powders at the same pressure. I see this all the time when reloading for my CF rifles. As mentioned above, Blackmag3 is slower than regular black, so is 777. I would expect thevelocities on both of these powders to be higher than black at the same pressure level. The reason is the powder takes longer to reach max pressure and pushes the projectile for a longer time, max pressure occures with the bullet further down the bore so there is more area to spread the pressure across, thereforeequal PSI spread over more area yeilds higher velocities.
Any thoughts along this line?
Exactly, which is why BlackMag would generally produce lower pressures than blackpowder or other substitutes. What becomes important is this. In .45 cal. the bore are is reduced byaround 20% as compared with .50 cal. This means for the same weight bullet, pressures in the .45 cal must be greater to supply the same force to accelerate this bullet along the same acceleration curve. Then as the bullet moves down the bore the volume of the breech gases doesn't increase as fast (at similar velocities). What does this mean? The 45 cal is a higher pressure animal.
Allow be to say this, I don't know if Varget is slower than BM3 but Isuspect that it is. I think that Varget contains more energy than BM3 but it releases that energy slower. I don't think Varget would reliably ignite with a percussion cap but BM3 can. So I think Varget is a slower powder.
The pressure curve determines the energy of the bullet because it determines the forces on the bullet. When a less energetic powder produces equivalent energies in projectiles then there can only be one answer, the less energetic powder has burned faster, elevating pressures above that of the slower powderwith theslower, more energeticpowder is still burning when the projectile leaves the muzzle.
If BM3 contains as much potential for energy as Varget, then it is even more dangerous than I havesuspected. Wherea guy gets into catastrophic problems is when there is too much energy in the breach volume and there is no where to go with it. When this happens, one has a grenade, bomb, what ever you wish to call it.
The thing I was most concerned about is this. Magkor claims that the pressures are half of Black powder. I am not sure this is true in the 45 cal. So when Magkor is claiming that pressures are half of black powder and that 120 grain loads and 400 grain bullet are ok in .45 cal., then it seems that people may begin to draw bad, very bad, conclusions from this marketing speak. I have done the best I can and only wish to caution. Anyone is free take from this what they will.
Happy Hunting, Phil
01-13-2006, 08:14 AM
#16
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 1,081
RE: A note of caution using Black Mag 3 in 45 cal ML's
I agree with you on all of what your saying, especially the saftey parts. I was in a hurry when I posted above so I may not have been as clear on this fact, I was only commenting about comparing 2 different powders and trying to estimate pressures of one based on another. There is no way without testing to know what the differences are with any accuracy. If the burning rate is known for each powder, you can generally asume (dangerous word) that the slower powder has a lower max pressure than the faster powder at a given velocity using the same size projectile, but that may not always be the case.
The 45 will develop more internal pressure than the 50 just as the 50 has more than a 54. Most 54's max load is around 10 to 20% higher (in volume) than a 50. The one thing you might have with the 45 vs the 50 is a thicker, therefore stronger, barrel. This may be why manufacturers allow the same powder loads in their 45's as their 50's. But that's just a guess on my part.
As for Varget, I'm not familiar with it. I use IMR mostly for reloading and have never looked into it. Since it is a smokeless powder it probably is a slower burning powder than anything used in ML'ers. Most smokeless powders however contain far more potential energy than ML'er intended powders so I'm not sure how they would compare on a pressure curve.
I do wish all the powder manufacturers would publish actual pressures with the load data of their recomended loads. At least that would give us something to compare things with.
The 45 will develop more internal pressure than the 50 just as the 50 has more than a 54. Most 54's max load is around 10 to 20% higher (in volume) than a 50. The one thing you might have with the 45 vs the 50 is a thicker, therefore stronger, barrel. This may be why manufacturers allow the same powder loads in their 45's as their 50's. But that's just a guess on my part.
As for Varget, I'm not familiar with it. I use IMR mostly for reloading and have never looked into it. Since it is a smokeless powder it probably is a slower burning powder than anything used in ML'ers. Most smokeless powders however contain far more potential energy than ML'er intended powders so I'm not sure how they would compare on a pressure curve.
I do wish all the powder manufacturers would publish actual pressures with the load data of their recomended loads. At least that would give us something to compare things with.
01-13-2006, 09:26 AM
#17
Typical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 771
RE: A note of caution using Black Mag 3 in 45 cal ML's
Phil,
With all due respect, until you actually measure pressure rise and levels in some sort of a controlled fashion with a benchmark, I see much of what you are saying as speculation but with some truth as well. Black Mag'3 is powerful for sure. And exceptionally great ignition and clean shooting. Which is why I happen to like it so much.
Also, I really don't see a distinct correlation to comparing a muzzleloading propellant to a smokeless powder in functional operating characteristics without some actual testing to support the correlation.
Range performance approximations sure, but unless you are actually going to scientifically test the two, then really it's just a speculation.
Not trying to grill you here ok, just an observation.
Black Mag'3 and Hodgdon 777 3FG are the two most powerful muzzleloading propellants I have ever used and are my preferance over all other substitutes.
For what it's worth, load the exact same amounts of Black Mag'3 and Hodgdon 777 3FG under the same projectile using the same ignition source.
You will notice that 777 3FG yields a much greater and sharper recoil with the same powder charge. Now, I don't know what that means scientifically, but I would speculate that Hodgdon 777 if every bit as powerful and generates as much pressureand perhaps evena bit more so than Black Mag'3.
I would also try Swiss 3FG Black Powder (My black powder standard and the best BP I have ever used). Swiss 3FG is also very powerful.
Respectfully,
Tahquamenon
With all due respect, until you actually measure pressure rise and levels in some sort of a controlled fashion with a benchmark, I see much of what you are saying as speculation but with some truth as well. Black Mag'3 is powerful for sure. And exceptionally great ignition and clean shooting. Which is why I happen to like it so much.
Also, I really don't see a distinct correlation to comparing a muzzleloading propellant to a smokeless powder in functional operating characteristics without some actual testing to support the correlation.
Range performance approximations sure, but unless you are actually going to scientifically test the two, then really it's just a speculation.
Not trying to grill you here ok, just an observation.
Black Mag'3 and Hodgdon 777 3FG are the two most powerful muzzleloading propellants I have ever used and are my preferance over all other substitutes.
For what it's worth, load the exact same amounts of Black Mag'3 and Hodgdon 777 3FG under the same projectile using the same ignition source.
You will notice that 777 3FG yields a much greater and sharper recoil with the same powder charge. Now, I don't know what that means scientifically, but I would speculate that Hodgdon 777 if every bit as powerful and generates as much pressureand perhaps evena bit more so than Black Mag'3.
I would also try Swiss 3FG Black Powder (My black powder standard and the best BP I have ever used). Swiss 3FG is also very powerful.
Respectfully,
Tahquamenon
01-13-2006, 09:41 AM
#19
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 1,081
RE: A note of caution using Black Mag 3 in 45 cal ML's
An interesting test, all though not very scientific, is to take equal amounts (100gr) of black, 777, pyro, BM3, etc. and light each off (on an appropriate surface outside) and see how each burns. I have seen this done with black and 777 and there is a significant difference in the burning rate. Obviousely there will be a difference when contained in a barrel but it does show to some degree the burning rate difference. Black is almost instant conversion to smoke, 777 was more like a fast firecracker fuse (for lack of a better description). It seemed to me that 777 took 2 to 3 times longer to be consumed.
I may have to test this again this weekend with BM3 and Pyro p just to see what happens. Unfortunatly I don't have any black to use as a benchmark.
I may have to test this again this weekend with BM3 and Pyro p just to see what happens. Unfortunatly I don't have any black to use as a benchmark.
01-13-2006, 10:40 AM
#20
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location:
Posts: 1,470
RE: A note of caution using Black Mag 3 in 45 cal ML's
Tahqaumenon wrote:
Phil,
With all due respect, until you actually measure pressure rise and levels in some sort of a controlled fashion with a benchmark, I see much of what you are saying as speculation but with some truth as well.
Yes, please. I do not mean to estimate any pressures perse. I know that I can not do that. I do feel that predicting the pressures (80grains volume BM3 and360 conical)must be greater than some given number would be supported by testing for the reasons I previously stated. Namely, I feel and I think you also agree, that BM3 is faster burning and less energetic than Varget which produces similar results by weight. I really do believe that to get similar muzzle energies, BM3 must develop higher pressures than Varget. And we do have empirical findings of the pressures Varget can produce. In this sense, its not just speculation, it is estimation, admittedly not ideal.
You have made the point that you know of no .45 cal that would allow for 120 grains of BM3. I don't know of any .45 muzzleloading bullets which are 400+ grains. Also, following your advice, I don't think anyone is going to get into trouble. But Magkor isn't giving this advice. They are not suggesting that one reduce max charges by 20%. They suggest pressures are approximately half of black powder and that you can substitute it on volume basis getting magnum performance. I may be wrong, but I thinkthat is much worse than my trying to estimate the minimum pressure I might be subjecting my firearm to if I rely on their statements.
I think you would agree. The energy in BlackMag3 is approaching smokeless powder. In that sense, I think it prudent to use BlackMag3 as though it is approaching Smokeless. I think you have done that. I've tried to do the same in my own, admittedly tortuous, way.
Black Mag'3 is powerful for sure. And exceptionally great ignition and clean shooting. Which is why I happen to like it so much.
Yeah, and I think I will like it too. I think I will like it alot. The powder itself is just powder. It is how one uses it that determines how safe it is. When I began considering BM3 and reading the ballistics on their website, I was instantly aware that to have that kind of energy at the muzzle, that BM3 is by far the most energetic powder we have to put down our muzzle. And that with a lower peak pressure, it must be much slower burning as well. That sounds like smokeless to me and so i began a quest to estimatesome kind of idea of what minimums I may subject my gun to using BM3. It was strictly for my own use, wanting if I used BM3, to be sure I kept my rifles in safe operating limits.
Recently, I struggled with the question of whether I should share where my ramblings have taken me. My first inclination was, no, no one would really care, or, no one would take any stock of what I may say, or, maybeits all a bunch of hocus pocus anyway not needing mention. Finally, i came to this conclusion. If i would advise this caution to my loved ones, I owed the same courtesy to the forum. It is what it is. A non-empirical estimate made being denied better information. Everyone is free to take from this post what they so choose.
Happy Hunting, Phil
Phil,
With all due respect, until you actually measure pressure rise and levels in some sort of a controlled fashion with a benchmark, I see much of what you are saying as speculation but with some truth as well.
Yes, please. I do not mean to estimate any pressures perse. I know that I can not do that. I do feel that predicting the pressures (80grains volume BM3 and360 conical)must be greater than some given number would be supported by testing for the reasons I previously stated. Namely, I feel and I think you also agree, that BM3 is faster burning and less energetic than Varget which produces similar results by weight. I really do believe that to get similar muzzle energies, BM3 must develop higher pressures than Varget. And we do have empirical findings of the pressures Varget can produce. In this sense, its not just speculation, it is estimation, admittedly not ideal.
You have made the point that you know of no .45 cal that would allow for 120 grains of BM3. I don't know of any .45 muzzleloading bullets which are 400+ grains. Also, following your advice, I don't think anyone is going to get into trouble. But Magkor isn't giving this advice. They are not suggesting that one reduce max charges by 20%. They suggest pressures are approximately half of black powder and that you can substitute it on volume basis getting magnum performance. I may be wrong, but I thinkthat is much worse than my trying to estimate the minimum pressure I might be subjecting my firearm to if I rely on their statements.
I think you would agree. The energy in BlackMag3 is approaching smokeless powder. In that sense, I think it prudent to use BlackMag3 as though it is approaching Smokeless. I think you have done that. I've tried to do the same in my own, admittedly tortuous, way.
Black Mag'3 is powerful for sure. And exceptionally great ignition and clean shooting. Which is why I happen to like it so much.
Yeah, and I think I will like it too. I think I will like it alot. The powder itself is just powder. It is how one uses it that determines how safe it is. When I began considering BM3 and reading the ballistics on their website, I was instantly aware that to have that kind of energy at the muzzle, that BM3 is by far the most energetic powder we have to put down our muzzle. And that with a lower peak pressure, it must be much slower burning as well. That sounds like smokeless to me and so i began a quest to estimatesome kind of idea of what minimums I may subject my gun to using BM3. It was strictly for my own use, wanting if I used BM3, to be sure I kept my rifles in safe operating limits.
Recently, I struggled with the question of whether I should share where my ramblings have taken me. My first inclination was, no, no one would really care, or, no one would take any stock of what I may say, or, maybeits all a bunch of hocus pocus anyway not needing mention. Finally, i came to this conclusion. If i would advise this caution to my loved ones, I owed the same courtesy to the forum. It is what it is. A non-empirical estimate made being denied better information. Everyone is free to take from this post what they so choose.
Happy Hunting, Phil