cayugad

All you could do is to try and work up a load with the loose powder. I would start with the Jim Shocky Gold powder at 90 grains and see how different it is then 100 grains of Triple Se7en.

TC209x50

cayugad, I did just that and found that I my POI moved high 6-8" @100yards. I'm not exactly for sure because I'm no expert but it seems that it might have some velocity increase over T7 pellets. What do you think? I just posted this same reply to the thread American Pioneer just a minute ago, see what you think? Did you get the phone # for the place I suggeted to campo?

sabotloader

TC209x50

My thoughts: 2-50 grain pellets of t7 are suppose to be equivelent to 100 grains of real BP and/or 100 grains of Pyro anything 2f. 100 grains of t7-2f is suppose to be 15% stonger - do not think it is quite that much more like 10% but nevertheless it is stronger.

2f ignites at a given speed and generates a given pressure at that speed. Depending how tight the bullet is in the barrel and the weight of that projectile the pressure increases qucikly and dramatically until it gets the bullet moving - once it is moving the powder charge burns out rapidly - BP quicker than T7. The next part of the equation is - 3f rises in pressure faster than 2f so again that causes a higher spike faster and again the tighter/heavier the bullet - thehigher the spike - BUT then 3f also burns out faster once the bullet is moving - hence my thought that if you are using a short barrel you might generate more velocity with 3f than 2f and still have burning and pressure pushing the bullet all the way out the barrel - on the other hand if you have a long barrel and the buring completes before the bullet exits then you will start losing velocity. But if you are using 2f the burning process last longer pressure last longer and thisconstantpressure pushes the bullet out of the barrel with no loss of velocity.

If you are a centerfire re-loader you can relate this this to the different buring rates of powders that you use there.

In my mind a 26" barrel is right on the verge -will 3f increase velocity or won't it - when you get to the 28" and greater barrels or 54 caliber 2f is probably the way to go.

Again some of the pressure generated will depend on how much pressure is need to start that object rest moving (remembering the rule an object at rest tends to stay at rest) and how much pressure is needed to make the object accelerate and continue to accelerate.

When I load a sabot/bullet combination - Iusea short starter, thumb pressure then the ram rod. I want to be able to load somewhat effortlessly when I am hunting so I am not interested in the short starter or pounding the sabot down. In th old days they would just drop the ball down and set it against the powder to get that quick second shot off.

I hope this makes some sense to those of you that read it, and TC I hope I have explained my thoughts.

cayugad

Yes I did note the phone number etc you suggested. As for why that POI would move that much, it had to be something to do with a difference in the burn rate I am sure. The results are interesting to be sure.

TC209x50

sabotloader, thanks yes I do follow that and it makes logical sense to me. What I don't understand is why both the sticks (two 50 gr.) and the loose powder (100gr of Jim's gold fffg) shot high. I can understand the loose but the sticksI'm not for sure about. The only thing I can think of isthe Jim Shockey sticksmight bemade fromthe fffg powder. A friend of mine shoots the regular American Pioneer sticks and he looked at mine and said he thought by recalling from memory that the stick I had looked to be more of a finer grain compressed stick. I don't know this I've never seen those sticks to compare against. If so that mightexplain it. I still can't wait to do a more conclusive test, however from what I've seen my encore seems to like it (25" apprx. without QLA) and I do enjoy some of the benfits of powder. I'd like to try the Pinnacle but from what I've heard there's probably not alot of difference in the two. I have noticed that the fffg in the Pinnacle isfiner grain than that of the Jim Shockey's Gold in fffg and there's also a difference in color so I'm still not convinced that they are made buy the same organization. They might both be made from the same process (Asorbic Acid someone told me).Thanks for the input and advice, since I joined this forum I've really enjoyed the discussions.

sabotloader

TC209x50

Just a guess - because I have not seen the Gold, but have read a couple of articles, I believe the Gold is screened to a higher and finer quality of powder - the granuals may besmaller and are cleaner- therefor creating afaster burning faster peaking pressure - getting your projectile out of the barrel faster.

If your barrel (useable length) is 25" (and really probabaly a little shorter than that by the time you add the powder and the projectile) and if you are shooting a tight or heavier projectile - I would think you gun would benefit from 3f powder. You may also be receiving somewhat of a bump by the fact that there is an air space between the projectile and the breech (almost like short starting), and as I remember the sticks, they occupy less space in the barrel than the Hodgdon pellets. Another reason some companies say crush and some do not.

The different coloring in the powder is cosmetic - so each company that APP contracts with will have something to claim of their own. I use to shoot the orginal clear shot and it was really pretty un-spectacular, but I am sure the formulation of it has been changed over the years.

you are correct - and this acid either in the powder or the residue will be what eats (etches)the metal in your gun if it gets damp for a long period of time in your barrel. If the residue remains dry or the powder remains dry it will cause no errosion for that same period of extendedtime.

good luck - thanks for the post back

bsteve

As I posted before the 250 gr. Shockwaves are very tight in my Omega, that's what got me interested in experimenting with different components. I'm also going to try different projectiles. I'm interested in the Dead Centers, gotta look around for some. Another thing I've wondered about is the tail on the Hornady SST sabots. Aren't the center holes on the Hodgdon pellets supposed to aid ignition? If so it would seem that the Hornady sabot would hinder this.

TC209x50

I forgot to mention that the bullets I'm using primarily are the Barnes spitfire 245 grain. I know there a little on the expensive side but for hunting there great. My gun also shoots the Hornady SST's very well but with T7 they are near impossible to load. With the barnes spitfire they seem to go down with a nice constant pressure, tight but not overly tight. The main benefit I get from them is accuracy in conjunction with the ease of loading. When I was using the Jim's Shockey's gold I tried the SST's and they loaded alot easier. If any of the omega and encore shooters are interested, chuckhawks.com website has some interesting info. about this bullet with respects to T/C and their usually tighter bore. I found it interesting reading. Just my observations

mayguy

I can give you a possible reason for the large difference in the points of impact. A slower, not faster, bullet will usually(of course up to a point) shoot higher. I know this seems nuts but if you think about it, the slower moving bullet is in the barrel longer an is subjected to more rise of the gun from recoil. I know this to be a fact using a hand gun, the slower load always prints higher. I also found this info in a reloading manual.

Tahquamenon

I prefer 3FG over 2FG powder.

I would shoot 3FG 777. Try about 80-85 grains FFFG or95-100 grains FFGand the 250gr Shockwave from your Omega.

Reduce any FFG (2FG) max black powder/pyrodex loading data by 10% for the 3FG powder and then another 15% for the increased power of 777.

So reduce Max Black Powder/Pyrodex FFGloads by 25% when shooting 3FG 777.

Example:
Rifle's max load is 150 Grains loose Black Powder FFG. Your max 777 FFFG (3FG) load would be 112.5 grains loose. I would round down to 110 Max 3FG 777.

Good luck!

Tahquamenon