Examining a new "used" Bp rifle
12-20-2005, 10:58 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location:
Posts: 1,251
Examining a new "used" Bp rifle
Just got myself a Thompson Center Hawken off of gunbroker.com.
Check out the item yourself and tell me what things you would look at before firing it. The seller states that the bore is in 125% condition, what things should I check out before firing, and would I need to take it to a smith to have it checked out?
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?item=41727723
Any help you can give me would be great. The seller has allowed me a three day examination period, so I want to get it checked out so I can return it if there are issues
Check out the item yourself and tell me what things you would look at before firing it. The seller states that the bore is in 125% condition, what things should I check out before firing, and would I need to take it to a smith to have it checked out?
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?item=41727723
Any help you can give me would be great. The seller has allowed me a three day examination period, so I want to get it checked out so I can return it if there are issues
12-21-2005, 12:18 AM
#2
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
RE: Examining a new "used" Bp rifle
If the bore is in 125% condition, that would mean it must not have been fired much. Drop a bore light down it and see what the bore looks like. You can make a poor boys bore light out of a 30 caliber cartridge casing that you polish to a high gloss with some Brasso. Wrap electrical tape around the open end so it don't scratch anything. Slide that down the barrel and hit it with a flash light. You can see real well down there then.
Check the hammer for the cock and half cock feature.The hammer should bedefinate in the locking up of the hammer. You will hear it click when you cock it.To cock that quiet (for hunting) pull the trigger back first, cock the hammer and then let off the trigger. It should stay back. Put the rifle on full cock and slap the back side of the rifle stock to see it the lock will slip. You could pull the lock and look under it if you want for rust. It would also be a good time to spray it with some sort of lube before you replace it. I am guessing it will be in good condition. Also check the nipple on the rifle. Make sure it is not rusted in place. If the nipple looks bad, replace it with a hot shot nipple.
Also check the stock for hair line cracks. Look by the escutcheon plate where it screws to the stock, look around the tang of the rifle, and around the back side of the lock for small cracks. That's normally where they show up. Also check the stock over for large chips, or finish mars.
Look the lock over real good. Look under the hammer and see if it is rusted on the actual underside of the hammer. A lot of this by the way in not a big deal but it is something to check. Depending on what you paid for it, some of this can be over looked.
Also look at the fit of the tang in the stock. The tang should not have any play to it. Make sure it fits nice and tight and that the hooked breech of the barrel locks up nice and tight to it. When the barrel is hooked and wedged, it should not have play to it also. There should not be a wide open crack there when it is "hooked" into the tang. And last check the wedge to make sure that it fits nice and snug and does not slide around.
Like I said, you're getting a used rifle and a lot of the minor things can be over looked. Also since you have a Thompson Center you have a good customer support. Give them a call and ask them for a manual if one is not supplied with the rifle.
If you get the rifle and it looks all worn out, and things do not fit tight, take it to a gun smith and have them check it. If not, clean the rifle real well, and then go shoot it. Start with a .490 roundball if it is a .50 caliber and a .015-.018 thick pre lubed patch. Put about 70 grains of 2f whether it is Goex or Triple Se7en and start there. Shoot groups. Keep pushing the charge until the group is the best or starts to fall apart. I would not go over 120 grains of 2f powder, or 100 grains of T-7with a T/C. I'd rather see you stay around 110 grains of 2f in the .50 caliber and 100 grains if your shooting 3f but you will have to be the judge.
You got a great rifle there.
Check the hammer for the cock and half cock feature.The hammer should bedefinate in the locking up of the hammer. You will hear it click when you cock it.To cock that quiet (for hunting) pull the trigger back first, cock the hammer and then let off the trigger. It should stay back. Put the rifle on full cock and slap the back side of the rifle stock to see it the lock will slip. You could pull the lock and look under it if you want for rust. It would also be a good time to spray it with some sort of lube before you replace it. I am guessing it will be in good condition. Also check the nipple on the rifle. Make sure it is not rusted in place. If the nipple looks bad, replace it with a hot shot nipple.
Also check the stock for hair line cracks. Look by the escutcheon plate where it screws to the stock, look around the tang of the rifle, and around the back side of the lock for small cracks. That's normally where they show up. Also check the stock over for large chips, or finish mars.
Look the lock over real good. Look under the hammer and see if it is rusted on the actual underside of the hammer. A lot of this by the way in not a big deal but it is something to check. Depending on what you paid for it, some of this can be over looked.
Also look at the fit of the tang in the stock. The tang should not have any play to it. Make sure it fits nice and tight and that the hooked breech of the barrel locks up nice and tight to it. When the barrel is hooked and wedged, it should not have play to it also. There should not be a wide open crack there when it is "hooked" into the tang. And last check the wedge to make sure that it fits nice and snug and does not slide around.
Like I said, you're getting a used rifle and a lot of the minor things can be over looked. Also since you have a Thompson Center you have a good customer support. Give them a call and ask them for a manual if one is not supplied with the rifle.
If you get the rifle and it looks all worn out, and things do not fit tight, take it to a gun smith and have them check it. If not, clean the rifle real well, and then go shoot it. Start with a .490 roundball if it is a .50 caliber and a .015-.018 thick pre lubed patch. Put about 70 grains of 2f whether it is Goex or Triple Se7en and start there. Shoot groups. Keep pushing the charge until the group is the best or starts to fall apart. I would not go over 120 grains of 2f powder, or 100 grains of T-7with a T/C. I'd rather see you stay around 110 grains of 2f in the .50 caliber and 100 grains if your shooting 3f but you will have to be the judge.
You got a great rifle there.
12-21-2005, 06:35 AM
#4
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Texas - BUT NOW in Madison County, NY
Posts: 6,270
RE: Examining a new "used" Bp rifle
ORIGINAL: cayugad
If the bore is in 125% condition, that would mean it must not have been fired much. Drop a bore light down it and see what the bore looks like. You can make a poor boys bore light out of a 30 caliber cartridge casing that you polish to a high gloss with some Brasso. Wrap electrical tape around the open end so it don't scratch anything. Slide that down the barrel and hit it with a flash light. You can see real well down there then.
Check the hammer for the cock and half cock feature.The hammer should bedefinate in the locking up of the hammer. You will hear it click when you cock it.To cock that quiet (for hunting) pull the trigger back first, cock the hammer and then let off the trigger. It should stay back. Put the rifle on full cock and slap the back side of the rifle stock to see it the lock will slip. You could pull the lock and look under it if you want for rust. It would also be a good time to spray it with some sort of lube before you replace it. I am guessing it will be in good condition. Also check the nipple on the rifle. Make sure it is not rusted in place. If the nipple looks bad, replace it with a hot shot nipple.
Also check the stock for hair line cracks. Look by the escutcheon plate where it screws to the stock, look around the tang of the rifle, and around the back side of the lock for small cracks. That's normally where they show up. Also check the stock over for large chips, or finish mars.
Look the lock over real good. Look under the hammer and see if it is rusted on the actual underside of the hammer. A lot of this by the way in not a big deal but it is something to check. Depending on what you paid for it, some of this can be over looked.
Also look at the fit of the tang in the stock. The tang should not have any play to it. Make sure it fits nice and tight and that the hooked breech of the barrel locks up nice and tight to it. When the barrel is hooked and wedged, it should not have play to it also. There should not be a wide open crack there when it is "hooked" into the tang. And last check the wedge to make sure that it fits nice and snug and does not slide around.
Like I said, you're getting a used rifle and a lot of the minor things can be over looked. Also since you have a Thompson Center you have a good customer support. Give them a call and ask them for a manual if one is not supplied with the rifle.
If you get the rifle and it looks all worn out, and things do not fit tight, take it to a gun smith and have them check it. If not, clean the rifle real well, and then go shoot it. Start with a .490 roundball if it is a .50 caliber and a .015-.018 thick pre lubed patch. Put about 70 grains of 2f whether it is Goex or Triple Se7en and start there. Shoot groups. Keep pushing the charge until the group is the best or starts to fall apart. I would not go over 120 grains of 2f powder, or 100 grains of T-7with a T/C. I'd rather see you stay around 110 grains of 2f in the .50 caliber and 100 grains if your shooting 3f but you will have to be the judge.
You got a great rifle there.
If the bore is in 125% condition, that would mean it must not have been fired much. Drop a bore light down it and see what the bore looks like. You can make a poor boys bore light out of a 30 caliber cartridge casing that you polish to a high gloss with some Brasso. Wrap electrical tape around the open end so it don't scratch anything. Slide that down the barrel and hit it with a flash light. You can see real well down there then.
Check the hammer for the cock and half cock feature.The hammer should bedefinate in the locking up of the hammer. You will hear it click when you cock it.To cock that quiet (for hunting) pull the trigger back first, cock the hammer and then let off the trigger. It should stay back. Put the rifle on full cock and slap the back side of the rifle stock to see it the lock will slip. You could pull the lock and look under it if you want for rust. It would also be a good time to spray it with some sort of lube before you replace it. I am guessing it will be in good condition. Also check the nipple on the rifle. Make sure it is not rusted in place. If the nipple looks bad, replace it with a hot shot nipple.
Also check the stock for hair line cracks. Look by the escutcheon plate where it screws to the stock, look around the tang of the rifle, and around the back side of the lock for small cracks. That's normally where they show up. Also check the stock over for large chips, or finish mars.
Look the lock over real good. Look under the hammer and see if it is rusted on the actual underside of the hammer. A lot of this by the way in not a big deal but it is something to check. Depending on what you paid for it, some of this can be over looked.
Also look at the fit of the tang in the stock. The tang should not have any play to it. Make sure it fits nice and tight and that the hooked breech of the barrel locks up nice and tight to it. When the barrel is hooked and wedged, it should not have play to it also. There should not be a wide open crack there when it is "hooked" into the tang. And last check the wedge to make sure that it fits nice and snug and does not slide around.
Like I said, you're getting a used rifle and a lot of the minor things can be over looked. Also since you have a Thompson Center you have a good customer support. Give them a call and ask them for a manual if one is not supplied with the rifle.
If you get the rifle and it looks all worn out, and things do not fit tight, take it to a gun smith and have them check it. If not, clean the rifle real well, and then go shoot it. Start with a .490 roundball if it is a .50 caliber and a .015-.018 thick pre lubed patch. Put about 70 grains of 2f whether it is Goex or Triple Se7en and start there. Shoot groups. Keep pushing the charge until the group is the best or starts to fall apart. I would not go over 120 grains of 2f powder, or 100 grains of T-7with a T/C. I'd rather see you stay around 110 grains of 2f in the .50 caliber and 100 grains if your shooting 3f but you will have to be the judge.
You got a great rifle there.
Slide the empty case down the bore, then shine a flashlight on the case head at the breech-it will light up the entire surface of the bore.....
12-21-2005, 08:08 AM
#5
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location:
Posts: 1,251
RE: Examining a new "used" Bp rifle
Wow cayugad and everyone else, thanks for the wealth of information.
I had to drain the bank account to pay for the rifle, so it will most likely be a month or so before I can get up all the accessories I need and the powder.
Few more questions, if you look at the pics on the auction site, the gun looks brand spanking new, and the seller said it is is brand new, never fired, etc. The barrel looks cherry (accoording to pics) as does the stock, etc. If these all look good, would that most likely mean that the bore is also in good shape, or could that fall prey to something that the externals did not? He said that stored it in a dry place and that it has never been taken out of the box. However, he also said that it is ten years old. With all the above information, is there anything else you boys would recommend? Is there any chance the wood might have warped and I wont have a cherry fit?
I talked to the seller at great length, and I am typically very skeptical of buying guns off of online auction, but I thought the price was right and the gun looked good.
Any more info, and thanks again all!
Happy Holidays!
I had to drain the bank account to pay for the rifle, so it will most likely be a month or so before I can get up all the accessories I need and the powder.
Few more questions, if you look at the pics on the auction site, the gun looks brand spanking new, and the seller said it is is brand new, never fired, etc. The barrel looks cherry (accoording to pics) as does the stock, etc. If these all look good, would that most likely mean that the bore is also in good shape, or could that fall prey to something that the externals did not? He said that stored it in a dry place and that it has never been taken out of the box. However, he also said that it is ten years old. With all the above information, is there anything else you boys would recommend? Is there any chance the wood might have warped and I wont have a cherry fit?
I talked to the seller at great length, and I am typically very skeptical of buying guns off of online auction, but I thought the price was right and the gun looked good.
Any more info, and thanks again all!
Happy Holidays!
12-21-2005, 08:29 AM
#6
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
RE: Examining a new "used" Bp rifle
I looked at the pictures.. if the rifle is the way it looks, I am sure you will have a BRAND NEW RIFLE on your hands. Usually unless the rifle is fired, the barrels used to come packed in grease, which you have to clean out of course before you can shoot.
I've bought many rifles from the gun sites. So far they have been as good or better then the seller described. I am sure you are going to have a beautiful rifle on your hands there. The nice thing about shooting a Hawkins is they are the least expensive rifle to shoot.
Black powder rifle supplies
DECIDE ON THE KIND OF POWDER[/b]
Pyrodex
Triple Se7en
Goex
Black Mag3
American Pioneer Powder
- loose or pellet[/ul]
[/b]
TOOLS NEEDED[/b]
[/b]
See through powder measure
Cleaning jag
Bore guide (not essential)
Cleaning mop
Patch worm
Bore brush
Short starter
Capper
Loading jag for the projectile
Nipple pick
Breech plug removal tool – socket set with long extensions works also[/ul]
CLEANING SUPPLIES[/b]
Isopropyl alcohol 91%
Car windshield washer fluid
Bore butter or lube for conical bullets
Gun Oil – Birchwood Casey Sheath, REM OIL, Breakfree CLP
Q-tip safety swabs
Cleaning Patches
Bore Solvents[/ul]
Birchwood Casey Bore Scrubber
Butch’s Bore Shine
M.A.P. – Murphy’s oil soap, alcohol, hydrogen peroxide[/ol]
[/b]
[/b]
PROJECTILES[/b]
[/b]
Bullets to match sabots according to the diameter of the bullet
Conicals
Roundball and patch
[/ul]
· Bore solvent
· Cleaning jag of the proper caliber
· Cleaning patches
· Old toothbrush
· Proper size screwdriver
· Range rod
· Small container (about the size of a vegetable can)
· Items marked * are optional or conditional
o * Fouling scraper
o * Proper size bore brush
o * Proper size nipple wrench
o * Wedge removing too
These are some things you might want to watch for on sale and pick up along the way. Not all of them are necessary, but are nice to have around. Some you can make at home. For instance, you can make your own patches with a simple yard of cotton pillow tick 100% cotton cloth from a Wal Mart. Many of the cleaning formulas in mentioned are not necessary but I do clean the bore from time to time with a good solvent.
Also if you want to get some cheap roundball and maxiball try this site. http://www.blackjackhill.com/ Bill & Judy are great people to deal with and will take care of you. I would suggest shooting a box of maxiball through the rifle. Just for fun, to break the rifle in, and to get you used to shooting the rifle. You will need some bore butter to shoot conicals. Also some of the R.E.A.L. conicals will shoot very well from your rifle.
Any other questions you have or something you do not understand or want clarification on, all you need do is ask. The people here are more then willing to help you out. Enjoy your new rifle. It is a dandy!!!
I've bought many rifles from the gun sites. So far they have been as good or better then the seller described. I am sure you are going to have a beautiful rifle on your hands there. The nice thing about shooting a Hawkins is they are the least expensive rifle to shoot.
Black powder rifle supplies
DECIDE ON THE KIND OF POWDER[/b]
Pyrodex
Triple Se7en
Goex
Black Mag3
American Pioneer Powder
- loose or pellet[/ul]
[/b]
TOOLS NEEDED[/b]
[/b]
See through powder measure
Cleaning jag
Bore guide (not essential)
Cleaning mop
Patch worm
Bore brush
Short starter
Capper
Loading jag for the projectile
Nipple pick
Breech plug removal tool – socket set with long extensions works also[/ul]
CLEANING SUPPLIES[/b]
Isopropyl alcohol 91%
Car windshield washer fluid
Bore butter or lube for conical bullets
Gun Oil – Birchwood Casey Sheath, REM OIL, Breakfree CLP
Q-tip safety swabs
Cleaning Patches
Bore Solvents[/ul]
Birchwood Casey Bore Scrubber
Butch’s Bore Shine
M.A.P. – Murphy’s oil soap, alcohol, hydrogen peroxide[/ol]
[/b]
[/b]
PROJECTILES[/b]
[/b]
Bullets to match sabots according to the diameter of the bullet
Conicals
Roundball and patch
[/ul]
· Bore solvent
· Cleaning jag of the proper caliber
· Cleaning patches
· Old toothbrush
· Proper size screwdriver
· Range rod
· Small container (about the size of a vegetable can)
· Items marked * are optional or conditional
o * Fouling scraper
o * Proper size bore brush
o * Proper size nipple wrench
o * Wedge removing too
These are some things you might want to watch for on sale and pick up along the way. Not all of them are necessary, but are nice to have around. Some you can make at home. For instance, you can make your own patches with a simple yard of cotton pillow tick 100% cotton cloth from a Wal Mart. Many of the cleaning formulas in mentioned are not necessary but I do clean the bore from time to time with a good solvent.
Also if you want to get some cheap roundball and maxiball try this site. http://www.blackjackhill.com/ Bill & Judy are great people to deal with and will take care of you. I would suggest shooting a box of maxiball through the rifle. Just for fun, to break the rifle in, and to get you used to shooting the rifle. You will need some bore butter to shoot conicals. Also some of the R.E.A.L. conicals will shoot very well from your rifle.
Any other questions you have or something you do not understand or want clarification on, all you need do is ask. The people here are more then willing to help you out. Enjoy your new rifle. It is a dandy!!!
12-21-2005, 06:01 PM
#7
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location:
Posts: 1,251
RE: Examining a new "used" Bp rifle
One last question for you cayugad.
What did you mean when you said "bullets to match sabots according to diameter of the bullet"?
I dont understand the differences between the different black powder projectiles, maybe you could give me a rundown on what is what and what is used for what.
Asides from that, excellent advice and I am looking forward to getting started.
Also, Ive been looking at Goex bp, any feedback, thinking FFg?
Any information to clear up the projectile confusion would be great...from anyone.
PS. Anyone have any idea what diameter a T/C Hawken ramrod is?
What did you mean when you said "bullets to match sabots according to diameter of the bullet"?
I dont understand the differences between the different black powder projectiles, maybe you could give me a rundown on what is what and what is used for what.
Asides from that, excellent advice and I am looking forward to getting started.
Also, Ive been looking at Goex bp, any feedback, thinking FFg?
Any information to clear up the projectile confusion would be great...from anyone.
PS. Anyone have any idea what diameter a T/C Hawken ramrod is?
12-21-2005, 06:54 PM
#8
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
RE: Examining a new "used" Bp rifle
What did you mean when you said "bullets to match sabots according to diameter of the bullet"?
I dont understand the differences between the different black powder projectiles, maybe you could give me a rundown on what is what and what is used for what.
Conicals being a full bore size chunk of lead are shot with a moderate powder charge. Because of their weight they get some better performace in long distance compared to that of a roundball. I shoot a lot of conical. In my traditional rifles I like the maxiball and the R.E.A.L. conicals. With 80-85 grains of powder under them they are all the power you need for even large game.
Sabots are a projectile enclosed in a plastic sabot or casing. The projectile is smaller then the true bore size and because of this they need the sabot to hold them and to help in their flight. Sabot projectiles like a Hornady XTP for instance can allow a shooter longer distance shots because of the better in flight ability of the projectile. I think a Hawkin is truely limited by the kind of sabot they can shoot, but they can be shot and done well out of one. You can push a sabot pretty hard sometimes and the accuracy with them is very good. Some 1-48 twist rifles do not shoot sabots well. You have to try them to find out. Stick with roundball starting out.
Also, Ive been looking at Goex bp, any feedback, thinking FFg?
Pyrodex RS, Select, & P is a substitute powder much like Goex. It is also a dirty powder to shoot. Many rifles shoot Pyrodex very well. Pyrodex P is the FFFg grade of the powder and again, some people like the finer grade of powder instead of the FFg grade of powder.
Triple Se7en is a substitute powder that shoots very well out of cap lock rifles. It is 15% stronger in loose form then Goex FFg or Pyrodex RS so you have to adjust your loads according. Also it is a cleaner burning powder but does sometimes leave a hard crud ring in some rifles. I do not find this the case in sidelocks so much.
American Pioneer Powder APP & Pinnacle are substitute powders that shoot excellent out of sidelcocks. Some people claim the powder is prone to moisture sensativity, but I have not found this the case. My sidelocks shoot Pinnacle 3f excellent.
Black Mag 3 I have never had the pleasure to get my hands on and shoot.
Anyone have any idea what diameter a T/C Hawken ramrod is?
12-21-2005, 07:11 PM
#9
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location:
Posts: 1,251
RE: Examining a new "used" Bp rifle
Anyone have any recommendations for a good place to start in terms of a ball diameter (or all they all standard)and patch thickness?
Also,
Do conicals need patch, or just lube, or what?
Also,
Do conicals need patch, or just lube, or what?
12-21-2005, 07:46 PM
#10
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
RE: Examining a new "used" Bp rifle
.490 roundball .015 thick patch. conicals do not need a patch but do need to be lubed. Also sometimes it helps to put a wad under the conical. All you can do is try a wad and see if it helps with accuracy.
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