BDOA

I started a new thread for this, simply because the other threads have gotten too long, and I was tired of reading them..lol

Before you ask if this gun or that gun is big enough, ask yourself, Am I good enough to use this gun?.. Am I a good shot?
Don't asume you are, cause most hunters seem ta have a hard time figuing out which end of the gun to point.

I have outfitted many hunters, most come in real sure of themselves, convinced that they can kill any thing at any distance. I had a guy take 8 shots at a moose with a 270 before it finially droped over. I had one guy that was a great shot, a real marksman.. missed a moose broadside at 120yards with a browning A-bolt 300. Most of you have prob never seen a moose up close.. let me assure you that a clean miss on a broadside moose at 120yrds is not the workings of a true marksman.. Take a VW beetle out walk 120yrds away from it and see if you can hit it, forget that walk 500 yrds away and you should still hit it somewhere.

If you are one with your gun, and if you don't suffer from Buck fever, you can take any northamerican animal with any caliber(legal caliber), but be responsible, the bigger the aniamal the bigger the gun.

I have attached a picture for your viewing enjoyment, it can also be found on my website. It is a B&C moose we took here in Alberta, It was crossing a cut line full trot, behind six cows. The shooter killed it with a single lung shot, from a 243 with an 80 grain reloaded bullet. He was a man that new his gun, and was absolutly certain about is abilities. It took 9 men to roll this bull off the tree he died against. (the gun in the picture is my 30-06 bush buddy)

idahoelkinstructor

BDOA, with being an outfitter are you not worried about all the hunters who can't shoot worth a darn no matter what gun they own? I am sure all your clients can talk the talk but few who can back it up. I am no outfitter or guide, but I have done my fair share of taking friends elk hunting with bows, blackpowder, and rifle (guiding for friends, if you want to call it that). Anyway I have seen many come to pieces and loose it when it is showtime and they are asked to perform. An example I remember well is a coworker that I took hunting in 1998. That year I harvested a nice 6x6 bull with my bow in September. Then in october, I went along to help family to hunt for spike bulls and cows rifle hunting. We came home with 4 more elk. My coworker said to me wow I wish I had some elk meat this year. I could sure use it and my wife and kids love eating it. He claimed to be a huge elk hunter but just hadn't had the time to go in the last few years. And he didn't have anyone to go with, since his uncle the hunter in the family moved away. I informed him that there was still time to hunt and I knew a excellent place to go for cows with blackpowder in November, and that I would take him. He didn't have a BlackPowder rifle but I did and we went out and I made him practice until he could hit a milk jug at 100 yards with ease. My father hadn't puched his elk tag yet either, so he came along too for the hunt. To make a long story short on the hunt. I helped my coworker and my dad close the distance on a of herd of 50 or so elk. They ranged from as close to 30 yards out to about 80 yards, all were in black powder range. I handed my co worker the rife and wispered to him to take the gun off safty and aim calmly and shoot the cow he wanted. My dad wanted him to shoot first and then he was going to shoot second. My friend was so excited that the BP barrel was going in circles when he was aiming. I saw him pull the trigger and he jerked the gun very bad. Nothing happened, he forgot to take the safty off, he tried too, but was so rattled he couldn't figure it out. He handed the gun back to me and told me to take the safty off. I did and told him that all he needed to do now was aim and pull the trigger. I told him not to jerk the trigger this time but sqeeze it calmly like he was aiming at the milk jug. I also told him that he needed to hurry up because the elk were starting to look at us. I was using soft cow calls to try to keep them calm and frozen. Anyway he looked at me and said sqeeze it, you mean like this, at which he pulled the trigger......BANG.... the gun went off strait up in the air. (Thank heavens) My dad thinking quickly did pick out a close cow and with one shot put it down. Later that night my coworker admited to us that he had only shot one elk in his whole life with his uncle back when he was young. But that he was not 100% sure he killed it because he and his uncle and someone else were all shooting at it. But because he was using a 7 mag and they were using 30-06's and the elk was suppose to be 300 yards away they all thought he killed it. He also admited to me that the elk he killed when he was young was the closest he had ever been to an elk before today. And that he was just amazed and excited that we could sneek that close to an animal like an elk. He also admited he hadnt been hunting at all for anything since highschool with his uncle. I still tried to help him kill an elk that year, and he never did but he still got some elk meat from us. Anyway I learned to not always believe what people think to be true. In his mind he was a huge hunter, and to tell him otherwise well that could have led to a fight and would have insulted him. But in reality he wasn't much of a hunter at all. I bet you guide a lot of people like this that think they know it all and have a lot of expreience but in reality its far different from what they say or think. I guess I would worry about what type of hunter I was guiding if they were packing a .243 for moose. I would also worry about the type packing a .375 H&H or bigger. Do you tell them if they wound an animal that you will finish it off? Sorry for being so long winded. Thanks Jason!

James B

There is no substitute for hunting skill and knowing your rifle. I have guided a lot of hunters as well. The good hunter gets it done with whatever weapon he is using. Any legal gun is capable of taking the game or it wouldn't be legal. IT IS ALL ABOUT your capability not the weapon.

SpyroAndes

Personally, I think this is just a bad cliche...

If a person isn't competant with his weapon, then he doesn't belong in the field.

If he can't shoot, it is his fault.

If he doesn't know the trajectory, it is his fault.

If he doesn't know the wind drift chart, it is his fault.

Frankly, the "knowing your weapon" stuff is way over-rated.

There is a saying in sports regarding great coach... A great coach can take his and beat yours, then take yours and beat his.

A great shooter can take the other guy's rifle and out shoot him with it... Does he "know that rifle"?

The first few times I bird hunted Mexico, I didn't have a gun permit so I had to use one of the outfitter's shotguns. It didn't stop me from out shooting everyone (save 1 guy that was a big time 'live pigeon' shooter).

Again, nobody is doubting that lots of cartridges can kill an elk or any other multitude of animals...

The bottom time is that we have 2 things at work here... Time and Opportunity... They are directly proportional.

The more time you have, the more potential opportunities you should have.

However, when TIME gets reduced so does OPPORTUNITY... You need to maximize the few OPPORTUNITIES that you have to be successful.

If I went afield with a 243 and I had a bull of a lifetime at 100 yards but couldn't take advantage of the opportunity because he wouldn't offer a good enough shot for that 243, I'd feel like a complete jack@ss for hunting with a 243 because if I had a 340 Wby, 358 Norma or Etc... I would have drove that bullet thru some bone to get to those vitals.

I guess it has to do with priorities...

Shooting rag horns, average mule deer and typical antelope with a rifle does nothing for me... I'd rather go home with nothing because I don't need to kill 'something' to consider my hunt successful.

However, when I get the opportunity at a special animal, an animal that took me $$$ and/or years to draw a tag, my rifle won't be my limiting factor...

SA

PS. I'll take a bow or a muzzleloader during those seasons as well. Just like I'll hunt with handguns, BPCRs or flintlocks for fun in non-trophy areas.

idahoelkinstructor

James I agree with you, but I guess my question to you and all others is do you trust someone with what they say before you have seen them in action? Also when helping/guiding someone else do you let them know or tell them outright that if they wound a animal that you will finish it off for them? We have a rule in our archery camp, if you wound one and you know it. Back off the animal let it lay down then go and try to round everyone up. Then we go after it as a team. We try to get the hunter who first shot it, to finish it off, but will let anyone shoot provided they have a good chance of finishing the job, if the orignal shooter doesn't have the shot.

James B

When I was guiding I never knew what to expect but any hunter who was armed with a legal rifle for the game we were hunting was allowed to use it. At least for the first time I hunted with them. I liked to see a hunter show up with a well used rifle in 270 or 308. In most cases they knew how to shoot them. Of course there are exceptions no matter what they carry. I liked to have the chance to have them fire a shot or two at a target before we left to hunt. It was not always possible however. From my own hunting expierence the 270 was not a marginal elk rifle. I would hesitate to take on the polar bears with it but even they have been killed with the 270 and even a lot less. There is no game in NA that has not been taken with the model 94 30-30 and within its range it still does the job.

BDOA

Idaho, In Alberta, the guides are not allowed to carry a weapon with the hunter, we have to rely on their abbilities, as scary as that can be. Nothing sickens me more than to see an animal wounded, or shot excessivly with bad shots. it is unfortunatly part of the job though tracking wounded animals. I have tracked more wounded bears than you have prob. seen..
You get to know pretty quick what a person does and doesn't know once you get alone with them in the bush.. After about the third time I have to tell them to not point the gun at me.. I am pretty sure they have no experience handling a gun.. lol

I have friends that can hit bulls eye after bulls eye on paper, but a live animal turns them into a trembling fool, why some people get like this I have no answer, and unfortunatly there is no knowing which guy is going to suffer from Buck Fever at go time.

BDOA

[/quote]
This is exactly what I am saying, but the only way to learn this stuff is to get out and shoot your gun, learn it.

I have lots of rifles, they all shoot different. I reload all my own rounds, when I build a round for a gun the first time, I will build it in five diff, grain loads, and shoot for grouping, when I find the round I like, I take it out sight the rifle in at 100yrds, then shoot 200,300,400,500, and learn the drop rate at each distance. this is the responsible thing to do. now if I do this with my win 270 blackbeauty, she will shoot way different trajectories than my marlin 30-30, or my win 30-06, or my rem 7mm mag, or even my rem 300 win mag. Each rifle has its own drop rate, some shoot flatter than others, each has a purpose in my hunting life, but most important is that each shoots no less than 200rounds a year. NOw can I grab a 375h&h and fire it accuratly, sure, but not till I have shot it a couple times and learnt it, I would never hunt with it before testing it out and learning it, even though I may be close the first couple shots, close is not good enough for me.

Not to be negative, but shooting a shotgun is a different ball of wax.. my sister can let rip on any shot gun and be some what accurate... look down the barrel, pull the trigger, and be within 8 inches..

THe guys I take out hunting, all of them have time, and money, or they would not be there, my job is to get them opportuinity, which I do.. What most of them don't have is practice, and time logged acctually pointing the gun at something breathing. I had a guy argue with me for a couple min, about wheather the bull moose I was trying to get him to shoot was a cow or not.. I asked him how many moose have you seen in your life.. to which he replied just the one yesterday, I then said How many do you think I have seen... NOw shoot the F"n moose.lol

the fellow that shot that big bull with the 243.. I would follow that man anywhere with that gun.. he can shoot a wart off a ticks ass at a 100yrds with that gun.. why, because he knows it, and he knows the bullet that is coming out of it.

Don't get me wrong , when I take a guy out on a guided moose hunt, and he asks me what size of gun he should bring, I always ask what the biggest you got...


Taking a 340 wby and pounding a hole through a bone to try and hit vitals is not a priority, it's a lack of responsibilty. If an animals is threatening you sure, send lead till it's dead.. but if a moose does not give you a good clean kill shot, consider him the winner of that game, and move on to the next, I feel that we have a responsibilty to the animal to ensure that we kill it, not hope to kill it.
I know it's easy to say when your not looking down the barrel at a moster..lol
I know we should practice what we preach, but I too am guilty of pounding one or two holes to get the kill, and fortunatly to this point have been lucky. I just don't want to recomend to people that have no experince that that is the best way to hunt.

I share your ideals about not having to harvest to be succesfull, getting to the position where you know that you have him if you want, is the game to me. I am all about the stalk.
Please don't be offended with my post, just opinions.. feel free to reply with yours.
How can you tell it's late, I'm rambling again..

SpyroAndes

That is a huge problem... I agree... The guys that I take on different trips, I hound WEEKLY after they have booked to goto the range with me or to go get some fur in the scope.

Actually, this past Saturday, I took 3 guys to the range to practice from a sitting position and a sitting position with shooting sticks.

I'd rather have a guy that could hit a baseball with a 338 WM.

I agree, that is why I have said that the average guy would be better with a 30-06 and up for elk.

wow, I don't see it that way at all... not the clean kill part... but the not hitting bone part.

Volumes have been written about INTENTIONALLY shooting for skelatal structure (e.g., shoulders) on African game.

Don't get me wrong, I like driving a bullet thru the heart/lungs... I just don't see an elk shoulder being much of an obstical for a .338" 250 grain Swift A-Frame travelling at lets say 2,700 fps at impact.

I haven't had a problem either, coincedence? Maybe because we both used enough gun?

I am very offended, I think that you should work me a great deal on a couple of your '05 spring bear hunts to make it up to me

SpyroAndes

Again, the debate is not if the 30-30 & etc will kill the animal.

You stated the # problem with it... WITHIN ITS RANGE... why would I want to limit my opportunities to the range of a 30-30?