Resident vs. Nonresident
03-08-2005, 02:29 PM
#61
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Scottsdale Arizona USA
Posts: 527
RE: Resident vs. Nonresident
Wireless is right that PR is a federal program but the dollars are allocated back to the state from funds generated by resident sporting good purchases. Spyro is rich and I think that is great. Now how do you know your AZ elk tag will be $2400 since the legislature is still in the middle of approving the new caps and no one knows what the first year increase will be? As for all the work done locally to build the herds and what a state's taxpayers have a right to it is all rhetoric for now. Both sides of this issue are passionate and have their points. I will be attending another meeting next week to try to prevent outfitters and ranchers from getting welfare landowner tags here. If you think your trophy bull tags are expensive now just wait if that happens. The Indians are in on the push also and they understand that Spyro is more than happy to pay $15000 for a trophy tag and they want to have them on their state lease lands and private property as well.
This issue is out of control and someone will end up unhappy. I am afraid that the average hunter on both sides is close to getting shut out of ever having the chance for a trophy bull again. Not a huge problem as I will be poaching the finest lands in the state and just might sneak that big bull out before anyone else. After we all give up because the non residents and USO get all the tags there will be no one left to build trickle tanks, cut juniper and haul water so there will be no elk and muleys left to chase. Extreme example but it could happen.
This issue is out of control and someone will end up unhappy. I am afraid that the average hunter on both sides is close to getting shut out of ever having the chance for a trophy bull again. Not a huge problem as I will be poaching the finest lands in the state and just might sneak that big bull out before anyone else. After we all give up because the non residents and USO get all the tags there will be no one left to build trickle tanks, cut juniper and haul water so there will be no elk and muleys left to chase. Extreme example but it could happen.
03-08-2005, 02:34 PM
#62
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rural Kansas... Where Life is Good
Posts: 4,139
RE: Resident vs. Nonresident
I will be attending another meeting next week to try to prevent outfitters and ranchers from getting welfare landowner tags here.
03-08-2005, 03:14 PM
#63
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Arcadia Ca USA
Posts: 210
RE: Resident vs. Nonresident
ORIGINAL: kshunter
Which would be very normal since the given the circumstances. A resident doesn't need to pay the big money for tag like th non-resident that buys it is. The statement makes complete sense. Still with all the state org's. non-resident's still aren't going to pay a vast majority of funds, when they equal 10-20% on the high side. If you went to other org.'s that didn't have the gov. tags, things would be a lot different, as you would see.
Which would be very normal since the given the circumstances. A resident doesn't need to pay the big money for tag like th non-resident that buys it is. The statement makes complete sense. Still with all the state org's. non-resident's still aren't going to pay a vast majority of funds, when they equal 10-20% on the high side. If you went to other org.'s that didn't have the gov. tags, things would be a lot different, as you would see.
The tag auctions are what make these orgs the money and that money comes from NON-RESIDENTS. Conceed atleast this point already.
ORIGINAL: kshunter
The discrepancy in tag pricing and tag allocation between residents and non-res. does directly effects the deer management. Not agreeing with that is like, limiting the amount of kids that go to school and expect them all to be as smart as before there was a limitation.
The discrepancy in tag pricing and tag allocation between residents and non-res. does directly effects the deer management. Not agreeing with that is like, limiting the amount of kids that go to school and expect them all to be as smart as before there was a limitation.
I never said that the tags have to be allocated 50-50. I just think that everyone should be in the same pool and have the same opportunity to draw.
Also, I don't have a problem with tags in the better areas being more expensive but just that they be more expensive for everyone.
ORIGINAL: kshunter
Like I said before majority of deer hunters shoot the first deer they see, for meat and sport, not always the rack. When that same "average" hunter has to pay 3-5X the amount to hunt for that tag, then they aren't going to bother. Even with some cheap doe tags(which you suggested) having to be selective in harvesting a deer(for a meat hunter) only lowers the chance of harvest for them.
Like I said before majority of deer hunters shoot the first deer they see, for meat and sport, not always the rack. When that same "average" hunter has to pay 3-5X the amount to hunt for that tag, then they aren't going to bother. Even with some cheap doe tags(which you suggested) having to be selective in harvesting a deer(for a meat hunter) only lowers the chance of harvest for them.
I could careless if Arizona charged $500 for a buck deer tag to hunt the Arizona Strip or the Kaibab and sold deer tags in all the areas for $20. Just as long as residents and non-resident pay the same amount and the drawing done from the same pool w/o quotas based upon residency.
ORIGINAL: kshunter
And since the NR hunters are filtering in and leasing the land from the "little man" who is going to be there to even shoot the doe and manage the herd, when the NR hunters won't do it, and Residents can't do it?
And since the NR hunters are filtering in and leasing the land from the "little man" who is going to be there to even shoot the doe and manage the herd, when the NR hunters won't do it, and Residents can't do it?
If the little man wants to hunt his property, maybe the little man shouldn't lease off the hunting rights. Btw, I think that if you spent even an iota of time to research the subject of hunting management, you would find plenty examples of great management of leased property.
ORIGINAL: kshunter
All I'm asking is think about this for a little bit and use a little common sense. Majority of hunters do Not hunt out of state! So the average Joe has to draw for a chance to hunt his backyard. And if Average Joe draws then he or she has to pay 3-5X times as much as they usually do.
All I'm asking is think about this for a little bit and use a little common sense. Majority of hunters do Not hunt out of state! So the average Joe has to draw for a chance to hunt his backyard. And if Average Joe draws then he or she has to pay 3-5X times as much as they usually do.
Look at the Utah Wildlife site, violation after violation for poaching... all by local residents of that Pansagaunt herd...
Under your management method, not only should residents of the state get preference but preference should be giving to residents based upon zipcode and the like...
ORIGINAL: kshunter
Not only that, but since non-residents are hunting their state more, most all the land is now leased, and land is a whole lot harder to find for hunting. But you justify that by saying they have a better chance at getting a lower price tag, in another state, that they don't want to even hunt in. But you're helping the little man?? haha You have got to me kiddin me!!!
Not only that, but since non-residents are hunting their state more, most all the land is now leased, and land is a whole lot harder to find for hunting. But you justify that by saying they have a better chance at getting a lower price tag, in another state, that they don't want to even hunt in. But you're helping the little man?? haha You have got to me kiddin me!!!
Private land is just that PRIVATE... what the owner of that land decides to do with it is his business.
Maybe that is why opportunity on public lands should be given equally to everyone.
I am in California right now... tons of the hunting lands here are on private property and/or leased... Is that because of Non-Residents?
ORIGINAL: kshunter
Who in the world hunts for elk in 8 states in one fall?????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????? Or even 2? Maybe, just maybe if that was your full-time job. The little man rarely hunts out-of-state. I don't think you know of the meaning of little man. The "little man" is getting the short end of the stick. Somebody needs a road-trip out of Cal.
Who in the world hunts for elk in 8 states in one fall?????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????? Or even 2? Maybe, just maybe if that was your full-time job. The little man rarely hunts out-of-state. I don't think you know of the meaning of little man. The "little man" is getting the short end of the stick. Somebody needs a road-trip out of Cal.
The average joe that wants to hunt for quality elk will have to apply 8 states every year to even have a chance of drawing a tag. Even with applying to 8 states, average joe might need a couple of years worth of preference points to draw an elk tag.
Let me put it this way, I haven't hunted elk in New Mexico on a draw permit in 10 years...
One last thing, speaking of the little guy getting the shaft...
If this entire issue isn't about leeching the most money possible from the non-hunter, why do several of these states have guide drawings or outfitter drawing for non-residents willing to hunt with a guide?
Or even worse, like in Nevada, allow non-residents that apply with an outfitter to apply to a guide drawing and, if unsuccessful, re-apply for the general drawing. No the 2 drawings isn't bad enough but the non-resident, that applies with an outfitter, accumilates preference points from each drawing. In Nevada, btw, preference points are exponential (ie. 1 pt = 1 entry in the drawing, 2 pt = 4 entries, 5 pt = 25 entries & 6 pt = 36 entries).
Then what is even more amusing is Wyoming's system of the general non-resident pool and the special non-resident pool. The only difference between the pools? The general costs $273 to apply and the special costs $473 to apply. That is the only difference.
03-08-2005, 03:35 PM
#64
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rural Kansas... Where Life is Good
Posts: 4,139
RE: Resident vs. Nonresident
I wish I had more time, but unfortunately I have a lot of work to do. That and it doesn't look like you'll get it.
If you can read that statement, then read Spyro's who post above when referring to the "little man" the post above this one, it makes no sense. Nuff said.
How in the world is the "little man" selling himself out, when a vast majority don't own their own land?
Like I said before, your statements are too irrational sparatic to make logical sense.
Spyro, All I'm asking is think about this for a little bit and use a little common sense. Majority of hunters do Not hunt out of state! So the average Joe has to draw for a chance to hunt his backyard. And if Average Joe draws then he or she has to pay 3-5X times as much as they usually do. Not only that, but since non-residents are hunting their state more, most of their backyard is now leased, and land is a whole lot harder to find for hunting. But you justify that by saying they have a better chance at getting a lower price tag, in another state, that they don't want to even hunt in. But you're helping the little man?? haha You have got to me kiddin me!!!
So I should care about the little man in Kansas when he sells himself out because of greed?
Like I said before, your statements are too irrational sparatic to make logical sense.
03-08-2005, 03:36 PM
#65
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Arcadia Ca USA
Posts: 210
RE: Resident vs. Nonresident
ORIGINAL: gleninAZ
Spyro is rich and I think that is great. Now how do you know your AZ elk tag will be $2400 since the legislature is still in the middle of approving the new caps and no one knows what the first year increase will be?
Spyro is rich and I think that is great. Now how do you know your AZ elk tag will be $2400 since the legislature is still in the middle of approving the new caps and no one knows what the first year increase will be?
Do I make a good living? of course
Is my cost of living astronomical? of course, the average 1500 sq ft house around here is now at $650K.
As for the tag prices in Arizona, it has been the topic of conversation for a while... I have heard different number figures tossed around, I believe that I got those numbers from Garth Carter's magazine. $1200 for north of the grand canyon deer tags (strip & kaibab) and $2400 for Bugle Gun hunts. Believe that sheep and buffalo were both set and $5000.
As for the $25K that I'll have in tag drawings, it comes out of savings and then goes right back into savings after the drawings.
ORIGINAL: gleninAZ
I will be attending another meeting next week to try to prevent outfitters and ranchers from getting welfare landowner tags here. If you think your trophy bull tags are expensive now just wait if that happens. The Indians are in on the push also and they understand that Spyro is more than happy to pay $15000 for a trophy tag and they want to have them on their state lease lands and private property as well.
I will be attending another meeting next week to try to prevent outfitters and ranchers from getting welfare landowner tags here. If you think your trophy bull tags are expensive now just wait if that happens. The Indians are in on the push also and they understand that Spyro is more than happy to pay $15000 for a trophy tag and they want to have them on their state lease lands and private property as well.
Btw, personally, I hope you are successful in stopping arizona for issuing landowner tags. Keep us apraised of the situation.
ORIGINAL: gleninAZ
This issue is out of control and someone will end up unhappy. I am afraid that the average hunter on both sides is close to getting shut out of ever having the chance for a trophy bull again.
This issue is out of control and someone will end up unhappy. I am afraid that the average hunter on both sides is close to getting shut out of ever having the chance for a trophy bull again.
ORIGINAL: gleninAZ
Not a huge problem as I will be poaching the finest lands in the state and just might sneak that big bull out before anyone else. After we all give up because the non residents and USO get all the tags there will be no one left to build trickle tanks, cut juniper and haul water so there will be no elk and muleys left to chase. Extreme example but it could happen.
Not a huge problem as I will be poaching the finest lands in the state and just might sneak that big bull out before anyone else. After we all give up because the non residents and USO get all the tags there will be no one left to build trickle tanks, cut juniper and haul water so there will be no elk and muleys left to chase. Extreme example but it could happen.
As for your extreme case, what makes you think that they outfitters could careless about the wildlife?
Even if they don't and are completely driven by money, they'll want to improve the herd.
03-08-2005, 03:41 PM
#66
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rural Kansas... Where Life is Good
Posts: 4,139
RE: Resident vs. Nonresident
ORIGINAL: kshunter
Which would be very normal since the given the circumstances. A resident doesn't need to pay the big money for tag like th non-resident that buys it is. The statement makes complete sense. Still with all the state org's. non-resident's still aren't going to pay a vast majority of funds, when they equal 10-20% on the high side. If you went to other org.'s that didn't have the gov. tags, things would be a lot different, as you would see.
However, you disputed my original point that the vast majority of the $ raised by these local species organization come from non-residents. I showed you how you are wrong. Who cares about the resident/non-resident percentage of membership in the Org?
The tag auctions are what make these orgs the money and that money comes from NON-RESIDENTS. Conceed atleast this point already.
Which would be very normal since the given the circumstances. A resident doesn't need to pay the big money for tag like th non-resident that buys it is. The statement makes complete sense. Still with all the state org's. non-resident's still aren't going to pay a vast majority of funds, when they equal 10-20% on the high side. If you went to other org.'s that didn't have the gov. tags, things would be a lot different, as you would see.
However, you disputed my original point that the vast majority of the $ raised by these local species organization come from non-residents. I showed you how you are wrong. Who cares about the resident/non-resident percentage of membership in the Org?
The tag auctions are what make these orgs the money and that money comes from NON-RESIDENTS. Conceed atleast this point already.
As for your extreme case, what makes you think that they outfitters could careless about the wildlife?
Even if they don't and are completely driven by money, they'll want to improve the herd.
Even if they don't and are completely driven by money, they'll want to improve the herd.
03-08-2005, 03:58 PM
#67
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Arcadia Ca USA
Posts: 210
RE: Resident vs. Nonresident
ORIGINAL: kshunter
Please I never disputed the original point. Just because you went to a meeting where some tags went for 20-30K, now you think that Non-residents put into 90%+ of the money into State organizations on the avg. Come 'on, I feel like I'm having a debate with a kid.
Please I never disputed the original point. Just because you went to a meeting where some tags went for 20-30K, now you think that Non-residents put into 90%+ of the money into State organizations on the avg. Come 'on, I feel like I'm having a debate with a kid.
I have seen Arizona Elk tags go for $100K.
I have seen Arizona Deer tags go for $80K.
I have seen Arizona Antelope tags go for $50K.
I have seen Sheep Tags go for $250K.
When I receive a newsletter the month after the annual banquet and it talks about how they raised a record $300K for wildlife and, in reality, $230K of it came from 3 Governor's Permits sold to non-residents... If 100% of the donantions remaining were made by residents, it would only be $70K.
Look, I never made the statement that residents are some how mor entitled to tags because of the monetary contributions of local wildlife groups.
Frankly, the guy that said it made a false statement...
Again, thanks for the personal attacks, it clearly demonstrates your inability to conduct a dicussion, with someone of the opposite opinion, with class.
SA.
PS. Anyonw want to explain to me why Colorado's non-resident tags and license seem to increase in cost every year but 2005 will be the first cost increase in resident tag and licenses since 1992? Anyone?
03-08-2005, 04:02 PM
#68
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rural Kansas... Where Life is Good
Posts: 4,139
RE: Resident vs. Nonresident
$20K or $30K? lol...
When I receive a newsletter the month after the annual banquet
Besides, this issue is deferring the real issue at hand. I'd still love you know, how your plan helps the "little man". Still waiting.
03-08-2005, 04:39 PM
#69
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Arcadia Ca USA
Posts: 210
RE: Resident vs. Nonresident
First, please just make new replies and use the edit button to fix typos and the like... when you use the edit button to add new content, raise new points or ask new questions, I miss most of them...
As for the little man... you don't think that increased revenues from non-resident hunters helps the resident little man? You don't think that increased out-of-state opportunity doesn't help the non-resident little man?
You seem to think that the only little man that exists resides in these Rocky Mt. states.
To be 100% honest, the cop in Georgia that wants to take his 2 boys elk hunting is just as important to me as the resident of Wyoming...
Why should the resident of Wyoming be at the top of my list? They certainly don't have the corner of the market when in comes to the "little man". The Rocky Mt states are definitely not population centers so just by the population, they have less "little men".
You don't think that the little man benifits from being able to apply him and his 2 boys for $100 non-resident elk tags? Yea, it won't be a trophy unit but they will get to atleast experience it. Heck, there currently isn't a state that you can get a single non-resident elk tag for $300... Instead of spending $1500 on tags, he could take himself and his kids on an elk hunt and have it cost him a total of $1500.
I remember reading Jack O'Conner as a little boy and dreaming about sheep hunting... how many people can afford a sheep hunt as a non-resident in this day and age?
In the lower 48, tags are expensive as heck and are impossible to draw.
In Alaska and Canada, they require guided hunts and tons of $$$.
In Mexico, you need to have more dollars than sense because it will run you $50K to shoot a sheep.
Will Elk become the next generations sheep?
It already has for the non-resident little guy! Tag prices are outgrageously expensive... States are making concessions to outfitters funnelling off regular non-resident permits into outfitter & guide pools.
SA
As for the little man... you don't think that increased revenues from non-resident hunters helps the resident little man? You don't think that increased out-of-state opportunity doesn't help the non-resident little man?
You seem to think that the only little man that exists resides in these Rocky Mt. states.
To be 100% honest, the cop in Georgia that wants to take his 2 boys elk hunting is just as important to me as the resident of Wyoming...
Why should the resident of Wyoming be at the top of my list? They certainly don't have the corner of the market when in comes to the "little man". The Rocky Mt states are definitely not population centers so just by the population, they have less "little men".
You don't think that the little man benifits from being able to apply him and his 2 boys for $100 non-resident elk tags? Yea, it won't be a trophy unit but they will get to atleast experience it. Heck, there currently isn't a state that you can get a single non-resident elk tag for $300... Instead of spending $1500 on tags, he could take himself and his kids on an elk hunt and have it cost him a total of $1500.
I remember reading Jack O'Conner as a little boy and dreaming about sheep hunting... how many people can afford a sheep hunt as a non-resident in this day and age?
In the lower 48, tags are expensive as heck and are impossible to draw.
In Alaska and Canada, they require guided hunts and tons of $$$.
In Mexico, you need to have more dollars than sense because it will run you $50K to shoot a sheep.
Will Elk become the next generations sheep?
It already has for the non-resident little guy! Tag prices are outgrageously expensive... States are making concessions to outfitters funnelling off regular non-resident permits into outfitter & guide pools.
SA
03-08-2005, 05:20 PM
#70
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Niwot,Colo USA
Posts: 267
RE: Resident vs. Nonresident
Well, Kinda afraid to get in the middle of this. But........
Been viewing this thread for a bit now and not to be personnel but Spyro your comments fall right inline with the typical left coast view that you are owed something by the rest of us and if you can't get it then there must be a law changed or made. From the outside looking in thats how it seems.
There could be several ways to fix all of this. I think one of them could be a State amendment that makes hunting a RIGHT of the people of that state and tags would be allocated as such. Not a resident....... Not a right!!!
Also if a state requires a guide for ALL non-residents to hunt but keeps an across the board license fee with a better non res. tag ratio Same diff. EHH!!!!!!!
This stuff will just go on and on until some day we have made it so complete and equal that we will all have to use the exact same equipment, method of hunting and shoot a matching type animal as mandated by all of the laws we had to make so that EVERYTHING is EQUAL!@#$%^&
It does occur to me that we have only been talking about ELK states and tags.....Why isn't anyone complaining about Whitetail states or Bear states??????????
I'm sure someone has a reason why I am all wrong and mis- guided!@#$%^
Been viewing this thread for a bit now and not to be personnel but Spyro your comments fall right inline with the typical left coast view that you are owed something by the rest of us and if you can't get it then there must be a law changed or made. From the outside looking in thats how it seems.
There could be several ways to fix all of this. I think one of them could be a State amendment that makes hunting a RIGHT of the people of that state and tags would be allocated as such. Not a resident....... Not a right!!!
Also if a state requires a guide for ALL non-residents to hunt but keeps an across the board license fee with a better non res. tag ratio Same diff. EHH!!!!!!!
This stuff will just go on and on until some day we have made it so complete and equal that we will all have to use the exact same equipment, method of hunting and shoot a matching type animal as mandated by all of the laws we had to make so that EVERYTHING is EQUAL!@#$%^&
It does occur to me that we have only been talking about ELK states and tags.....Why isn't anyone complaining about Whitetail states or Bear states??????????
I'm sure someone has a reason why I am all wrong and mis- guided!@#$%^