Useing GPS with topoGPS (UTM)?
01-01-2002, 12:23 AM
#1
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Central Ohio OH USA
Posts: 172
Useing GPS with topoGPS (UTM)?
I just got done reading an article Intergrating GPS With Topographic Maps By Larry Schuh in Bowhunter MAG 2000 gear guide.
It explains basics of how a GPS works But usses Universal Transverse Mecator Projection Mode on most GPS(UTM).
Acording to the article you can find destination on a topo put the UTM in and it will put you within 20 meters.
Have you used this method and how has it worked for you?
TrestandEd
"Hard work ... conviction ... pride ... responsibility ... class ... character ... success...BOWHUNTING
It explains basics of how a GPS works But usses Universal Transverse Mecator Projection Mode on most GPS(UTM).
Acording to the article you can find destination on a topo put the UTM in and it will put you within 20 meters.
Have you used this method and how has it worked for you?
TrestandEd
"Hard work ... conviction ... pride ... responsibility ... class ... character ... success...BOWHUNTING
01-01-2002, 05:43 AM
#2
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Remsen NY USA
Posts: 66
RE: Useing GPS with topoGPS (UTM)?
I received a Magellan 310 GPS and some topographic map software for Christmas. I used the map software to find the lat/long for where a stream fed a beaver pond that I wanted to scout. Then I punched those coordinates into my GPS and I it guided right to that spot. A few days later I did the same thing to find a different swamp. So the GPS + topo map software combo do work well together in my opinion.<img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>
01-01-2002, 10:15 AM
#3
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 555
RE: Useing GPS with topoGPS (UTM)?
They work great. I don't know how I ever did without one, Love it!!!
Oh, if you go this route, be sure to get GPS plotters. They are plastic scales that help plot positions.
Edited by - weasel on 01/01/2002 11:20:04
Oh, if you go this route, be sure to get GPS plotters. They are plastic scales that help plot positions.
Edited by - weasel on 01/01/2002 11:20:04
01-01-2002, 08:16 PM
#4
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Holland New York
Posts: 52
RE: Useing GPS with topoGPS (UTM)?
You can buy at any GOOD map store a plastic conversion scale that will allow you to take the UTM values of your GPS (you have to switch your units on your system) and pin point exactly where you were at on the topo.
You overlay the scale on your topo map, draw a few intersecting lines an BINGO your there. It takes a little bit a figuring out but, you can input the UTM values into your GPS to put you exactly on that secluded bench. You can also take your way points and lay them out on your map. This tied in with the airial photographs you can down load on the internet gives you an amazing amount of information.
You overlay the scale on your topo map, draw a few intersecting lines an BINGO your there. It takes a little bit a figuring out but, you can input the UTM values into your GPS to put you exactly on that secluded bench. You can also take your way points and lay them out on your map. This tied in with the airial photographs you can down load on the internet gives you an amazing amount of information.
01-01-2002, 11:28 PM
#5
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: , Alaska USA
Posts: 89
RE: Useing GPS with topoGPS (UTM)?
TreestandEd:
You've brought up a very good question. As an instructor in Wilderness Navigation with both map and compass, and GPS, I have used just about every method of coordinating maps and GPSs out there.
Yes it is easy to enter the UTM coordinates into most of today's GPS units, and with a little training, it's also easy to use UTM on the USGS Topo maps. In fact, about the only coordinates a GPS wont take is Township and Range. If ever they figure out a way to do this one, it will be a real boon to some of us, since T & R is often used in legal descriptions of land, and is not easily translated into other coordinates.
However, when all is said and done, I have to say that the newer GPSs with downloadable topo map software, have eliminated all the work. There are two reasons why I prefer the downloadable topos over the USGS topos
One is that in many places, the USGS topo maps are way outdated…some even touting "latest updates" as early as 1925!. With as much geological and political movement that the world has seen since 1925, this results in some pretty serious discrepancies.
Second, the better downloadable topos designed for the GPSs, though still not perfect, and missing several features, tend to be more accurate than the USGS maps.
I'll still take the occasional USGS map with me into the field, whenever I feel the need, but that need is becoming less and less all the time.
I use the Garmin line of products and my latest includes the GPS Map 76. With Garmin's version of the topo maps on my computer, I can easily pick any location I wish to see, enter it into my GPS, and get there.
Inversely, I can go out exploring, then come home and put my track on the computer and see exactly where I've been.
Additionally, while in the field, I can scout ahead many miles, just by scrolling through the topo maps on my hand held unit.
Though I highly recommend the new GPSs with topo capabilities there are a couple of things to remember. One is that these devices can fail. Therefore it is critical that you still know the basics of map and compass navigation, and that you always have at least a compass with you.
Two is that none of the hand held units work exceptionally well at rough terrain walking speeds. This means that you can walk a good 100 feet or more before they lock in, and tell you which direction you're going. Just as often as not, it can be 100 ft in the wrong direction.
That is why, when walking, I use my GPS and compass in tandem. I'll have my destination (camp, kill, lake, etc) marked on the GPS, activate the "Go To" feature, and take the direction and distance of travel reading from the unit.
I will then enter that degree on my compass, and find the direction from where I'm standing, and head out.
As long as I'm going in the right general direction, I can rely on the GPS more than the compass, but if ever I stop, explore around, or otherwise lose direction of travel, it's always good to repeat the process.
With the ability for many GPSs to be set for "Magnetic North" readings, thus eliminating the translation of magnetic declination, the use of a compass becomes even easier.
Following is a short account of a hunting trip, that I hope you will enjoy, and that will help illustrate the map and compass need mentioned above:
One year while hunting for moose from river boat, along the Yetna River, we decided to stake out a vast swamp that we had noticed on the map, situated about one mile off the river. Our best chance of doing this was in the evening, since that is when most of the moose traffic was being observed at that time of year.
Running up the river that late afternoon, we found a likely spot to beach the boat, and split up into two different parties. My partner headed through the woods with his 5 year old son, in one direction, designed to get to the southern end of the swamp, and I headed out in another direction with my 6 year old foster son in tow, looking for the northern end of the swamp.
Well, after a difficult hike through very thick brush, head high grass, swampy terrain, thick forest, and all with no form of trail whatsoever, we finally arrived on the edge of the swamp.
Navigation going in was relatively simple because the skyline over the swamp was different than the sky in the jungle that we were traversing, and it made for a good landmark.
Upon arriving at our destination we spent a pleasant evening nestled in a little cove of trees on the very end of the swamp, watching all the many creatures that frequent such places, go about their business. But alas, there were no legal bulls in the vicinity, so as darkness descended upon us, we packed up our gear and prepared for the journey out.
It fast became apparent just how difficult this journey back to the boat was going to be. Here we were in the middle of some of Alaska's wildest country, with overcast skies, pitch black only minutes away, bears known to be in the area, and a truly dense and varied jungle to traverse, hopefully in the right direction to find the exact spot on the long river, where our boat was tied.
Thankfully I had marked the location of the boat on the GPS that I had in my fanny pack. Using this unit to perform a "Go To" function, I headed out in what I thought was the correct direction (remember…dense cover, no trails, and pitch black equals no landmarks). After staggering around for several hundred feet, each step being carefully felt, before fully committed to, and weaving between trees, around brush, and in and out of the deep holes found in the head high grassy areas, I saw my GPS suddenly kick in and spin completely around. I was heading in the wrong direction!
I stood there for about a minute, trying to calculate the direction from what I was seeing on the GPS's screen, but the screen moved again (even thought I was standing still), and locked into a "North Up" position. I could clearly read the direction of travel in degrees and the distance to destination on the GPS, but I could not move fast enough to make the direction of travel arrow work properly. Finally it dawned on me that a GPS just would not work at the staggering snails pace that the terrain required.
Thus I learned how important it was to use a compass with my GPS when traveling on foot. Pulling the much used Sylva compass out of my pocket, I read the direction of travel from the GPS and set the compass accordingly. I then knew exactly which direction to start moving (be careful not to allow your compass to be influenced by ferrous metals on your person).
After considerable time and much stopping to help the little guy who was hanging onto my fanny pack, and struggling even more than I, we made it to the beach, and found ourselves about ten feet from the boat!
In closing let me just add that this was a good lesson for me, not only in wilderness navigation, but in preparedness as well…I now carry a flashlight or head lamp on these midnight bush whacking expeditions.
Hope this helps, let me know if there's anything else I can do.
thane
<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle> If You Ain't Hunted Alaska, You're Still Just Practicing <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>
You've brought up a very good question. As an instructor in Wilderness Navigation with both map and compass, and GPS, I have used just about every method of coordinating maps and GPSs out there.
Yes it is easy to enter the UTM coordinates into most of today's GPS units, and with a little training, it's also easy to use UTM on the USGS Topo maps. In fact, about the only coordinates a GPS wont take is Township and Range. If ever they figure out a way to do this one, it will be a real boon to some of us, since T & R is often used in legal descriptions of land, and is not easily translated into other coordinates.
However, when all is said and done, I have to say that the newer GPSs with downloadable topo map software, have eliminated all the work. There are two reasons why I prefer the downloadable topos over the USGS topos
One is that in many places, the USGS topo maps are way outdated…some even touting "latest updates" as early as 1925!. With as much geological and political movement that the world has seen since 1925, this results in some pretty serious discrepancies.
Second, the better downloadable topos designed for the GPSs, though still not perfect, and missing several features, tend to be more accurate than the USGS maps.
I'll still take the occasional USGS map with me into the field, whenever I feel the need, but that need is becoming less and less all the time.
I use the Garmin line of products and my latest includes the GPS Map 76. With Garmin's version of the topo maps on my computer, I can easily pick any location I wish to see, enter it into my GPS, and get there.
Inversely, I can go out exploring, then come home and put my track on the computer and see exactly where I've been.
Additionally, while in the field, I can scout ahead many miles, just by scrolling through the topo maps on my hand held unit.
Though I highly recommend the new GPSs with topo capabilities there are a couple of things to remember. One is that these devices can fail. Therefore it is critical that you still know the basics of map and compass navigation, and that you always have at least a compass with you.
Two is that none of the hand held units work exceptionally well at rough terrain walking speeds. This means that you can walk a good 100 feet or more before they lock in, and tell you which direction you're going. Just as often as not, it can be 100 ft in the wrong direction.
That is why, when walking, I use my GPS and compass in tandem. I'll have my destination (camp, kill, lake, etc) marked on the GPS, activate the "Go To" feature, and take the direction and distance of travel reading from the unit.
I will then enter that degree on my compass, and find the direction from where I'm standing, and head out.
As long as I'm going in the right general direction, I can rely on the GPS more than the compass, but if ever I stop, explore around, or otherwise lose direction of travel, it's always good to repeat the process.
With the ability for many GPSs to be set for "Magnetic North" readings, thus eliminating the translation of magnetic declination, the use of a compass becomes even easier.
Following is a short account of a hunting trip, that I hope you will enjoy, and that will help illustrate the map and compass need mentioned above:
One year while hunting for moose from river boat, along the Yetna River, we decided to stake out a vast swamp that we had noticed on the map, situated about one mile off the river. Our best chance of doing this was in the evening, since that is when most of the moose traffic was being observed at that time of year.
Running up the river that late afternoon, we found a likely spot to beach the boat, and split up into two different parties. My partner headed through the woods with his 5 year old son, in one direction, designed to get to the southern end of the swamp, and I headed out in another direction with my 6 year old foster son in tow, looking for the northern end of the swamp.
Well, after a difficult hike through very thick brush, head high grass, swampy terrain, thick forest, and all with no form of trail whatsoever, we finally arrived on the edge of the swamp.
Navigation going in was relatively simple because the skyline over the swamp was different than the sky in the jungle that we were traversing, and it made for a good landmark.
Upon arriving at our destination we spent a pleasant evening nestled in a little cove of trees on the very end of the swamp, watching all the many creatures that frequent such places, go about their business. But alas, there were no legal bulls in the vicinity, so as darkness descended upon us, we packed up our gear and prepared for the journey out.
It fast became apparent just how difficult this journey back to the boat was going to be. Here we were in the middle of some of Alaska's wildest country, with overcast skies, pitch black only minutes away, bears known to be in the area, and a truly dense and varied jungle to traverse, hopefully in the right direction to find the exact spot on the long river, where our boat was tied.
Thankfully I had marked the location of the boat on the GPS that I had in my fanny pack. Using this unit to perform a "Go To" function, I headed out in what I thought was the correct direction (remember…dense cover, no trails, and pitch black equals no landmarks). After staggering around for several hundred feet, each step being carefully felt, before fully committed to, and weaving between trees, around brush, and in and out of the deep holes found in the head high grassy areas, I saw my GPS suddenly kick in and spin completely around. I was heading in the wrong direction!
I stood there for about a minute, trying to calculate the direction from what I was seeing on the GPS's screen, but the screen moved again (even thought I was standing still), and locked into a "North Up" position. I could clearly read the direction of travel in degrees and the distance to destination on the GPS, but I could not move fast enough to make the direction of travel arrow work properly. Finally it dawned on me that a GPS just would not work at the staggering snails pace that the terrain required.
Thus I learned how important it was to use a compass with my GPS when traveling on foot. Pulling the much used Sylva compass out of my pocket, I read the direction of travel from the GPS and set the compass accordingly. I then knew exactly which direction to start moving (be careful not to allow your compass to be influenced by ferrous metals on your person).
After considerable time and much stopping to help the little guy who was hanging onto my fanny pack, and struggling even more than I, we made it to the beach, and found ourselves about ten feet from the boat!
In closing let me just add that this was a good lesson for me, not only in wilderness navigation, but in preparedness as well…I now carry a flashlight or head lamp on these midnight bush whacking expeditions.
Hope this helps, let me know if there's anything else I can do.
thane
<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle> If You Ain't Hunted Alaska, You're Still Just Practicing <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>
01-02-2002, 12:21 PM
#6
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Thornton CO USA
Posts: 70
RE: Useing GPS with topoGPS (UTM)?
Than-
My hat off to you for your reply. What you have been doing I have been doing also in my forays with the GPS. It just takes alittle time to think it through as to how to integrate that little unit into what we do.
My hat off to you for your reply. What you have been doing I have been doing also in my forays with the GPS. It just takes alittle time to think it through as to how to integrate that little unit into what we do.
01-02-2002, 01:29 PM
#7
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: , Alaska USA
Posts: 89
RE: Useing GPS with topoGPS (UTM)?
Colo Wolf:
Thanks for the kind remarks. If you want a really good test of your unit, get yourself dropped off in the middle of the wilderness, with no trails, roads, towns, villages etc. for litterally hundreds of miles around, and see what you come up with.
As it sounds like you already know, nothing brings about a true appreciation of your GPS, and map and compass skills as when you are completely cut off, by several hundred miles from any sign of civilization
<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle> If You Ain't Hunted Alaska, You're Still Just Practicing <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>
Thanks for the kind remarks. If you want a really good test of your unit, get yourself dropped off in the middle of the wilderness, with no trails, roads, towns, villages etc. for litterally hundreds of miles around, and see what you come up with.
As it sounds like you already know, nothing brings about a true appreciation of your GPS, and map and compass skills as when you are completely cut off, by several hundred miles from any sign of civilization
<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle> If You Ain't Hunted Alaska, You're Still Just Practicing <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>
01-02-2002, 03:41 PM
#8
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Central Ohio OH USA
Posts: 172
RE: Useing GPS with topoGPS (UTM)?
Wow great post Thaninator learning all the time
TrestandEd
"Hard work ... conviction ... pride ... responsibility ... class ... character ... success...BOWHUNTING
TrestandEd
"Hard work ... conviction ... pride ... responsibility ... class ... character ... success...BOWHUNTING
01-02-2002, 03:45 PM
#9
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Thornton CO USA
Posts: 70
RE: Useing GPS with topoGPS (UTM)?
Than-
Can;t say that I have had the fun of hundreds of square miles but when I can walk out to camp at 0 beer thirty 10 miles, making it in on a moonless night by 10, well... thats when I was really sold on a GPS... the bonus was to retrieve the elk the next day <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Can;t say that I have had the fun of hundreds of square miles but when I can walk out to camp at 0 beer thirty 10 miles, making it in on a moonless night by 10, well... thats when I was really sold on a GPS... the bonus was to retrieve the elk the next day <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
01-02-2002, 07:23 PM
#10
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: , Alaska USA
Posts: 89
RE: Useing GPS with topoGPS (UTM)?
Colo Wolf:
Ya mon...I know the feeling! I kinda look at these devices a minature miracles. Takes wilderness navigation to a whole new level...I used mine this year, to explore some serious Alaskan wilderness that no human had ever previously set foot in!
They allow you to just meander around in the thick of it, then get back to camp after dark sets in!
Now if we can just talk them into building one that includes a bear warning device
<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle> If You Ain't Hunted Alaska, You're Still Just Practicing <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>
Ya mon...I know the feeling! I kinda look at these devices a minature miracles. Takes wilderness navigation to a whole new level...I used mine this year, to explore some serious Alaskan wilderness that no human had ever previously set foot in!
They allow you to just meander around in the thick of it, then get back to camp after dark sets in!
Now if we can just talk them into building one that includes a bear warning device
<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle> If You Ain't Hunted Alaska, You're Still Just Practicing <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>