Power vs. shot placement
04-23-2004, 07:24 AM
#1
Typical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location:
Posts: 549
Power vs. shot placement
Eventually everyone messes up a shot and either has to shoot an animal again or do alot of tracking. It's part of the whole picture and nobody's exempt from it not even bowhunters. **** happens and we have to deal with it.
But this age old debate has been around longer than any of us probally. Elmer Keith and Jack O'connor debated for decades over this topic. One relied on power just incase and the other relied on accuracy and shot placement. While both were outstanding men and expert rifle shots. They had a debate and today and forever will be on the top of the debate list in rifle shooters. Todays biggest hype is bullet selection. But that's a different topic.
I would say from seeing a variety of shooters in the field in today's society 75% of all shooters have a very low shooting skill. And 50% out that 75% are really bad shots. So to improve their odds of taking game they rely on a much bigger caliber for trying to take game. While some hunts such as brown bear and african game will take alittle more power or heavier bullet, we have become the magnum age of shooters. I'm not exempt either I shoot a .300 win mag myself. But that's a baby cartridge to some. I also have a 375 h&h. to this day have not shot anything with it. Just don't take it in the field.
But heres the real deal. When did it become beneficial to carry a rifle for power than one that you can shoot more accurately?
Is it really necessary to upgrade power vs. something that already works well for the individual?
Is power vs. shot placement a cure for hunters that can't shoot that well?
Would a person be afraid of going to a smaller caliber for game and picking their shots?
Outside the myth of having to have a super mag for larger animals such as elk wouldn't the person with good accuracy have just as good of odds on taking the animal?
Do children really need to start out on magnum calibers for hunting?
I'm lost someone explain to me why power is better than someone who can shoot their rifle well under most hunting circumstances?
But this age old debate has been around longer than any of us probally. Elmer Keith and Jack O'connor debated for decades over this topic. One relied on power just incase and the other relied on accuracy and shot placement. While both were outstanding men and expert rifle shots. They had a debate and today and forever will be on the top of the debate list in rifle shooters. Todays biggest hype is bullet selection. But that's a different topic.
I would say from seeing a variety of shooters in the field in today's society 75% of all shooters have a very low shooting skill. And 50% out that 75% are really bad shots. So to improve their odds of taking game they rely on a much bigger caliber for trying to take game. While some hunts such as brown bear and african game will take alittle more power or heavier bullet, we have become the magnum age of shooters. I'm not exempt either I shoot a .300 win mag myself. But that's a baby cartridge to some. I also have a 375 h&h. to this day have not shot anything with it. Just don't take it in the field.
But heres the real deal. When did it become beneficial to carry a rifle for power than one that you can shoot more accurately?
Is it really necessary to upgrade power vs. something that already works well for the individual?
Is power vs. shot placement a cure for hunters that can't shoot that well?
Would a person be afraid of going to a smaller caliber for game and picking their shots?
Outside the myth of having to have a super mag for larger animals such as elk wouldn't the person with good accuracy have just as good of odds on taking the animal?
Do children really need to start out on magnum calibers for hunting?
I'm lost someone explain to me why power is better than someone who can shoot their rifle well under most hunting circumstances?
04-23-2004, 08:49 AM
#2
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rocky Mountains, Colorado
Posts: 1,964
RE: Power vs. shot placement
I believe your premise of "one or the other" is a common, common, common MYTH!
Power and Placement ARE NOT mutually exclusive of each other.
Some folks can shoot. Some folks can't.
For those that can shoot, powerful cartridges AND placement --- now there is a combination that just royally kicks ass.
It's really not that hard to figure out unless one WANTS to make it complicated.
Good Luck and Good Hunting,
EKM
Power and Placement ARE NOT mutually exclusive of each other.
Some folks can shoot. Some folks can't.
For those that can shoot, powerful cartridges AND placement --- now there is a combination that just royally kicks ass.
It's really not that hard to figure out unless one WANTS to make it complicated.
Good Luck and Good Hunting,
EKM
04-23-2004, 09:05 AM
#3
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,395
RE: Power vs. shot placement
I'm lost someone explain to me why power is better than someone who can shoot their rifle well under most hunting circumstances
Some hunter may go on there first bigtime elk hunt after hunting whitetails for 20-years. These guys will pickup a magazine or look on the internet. They read that there 30-06 or 270 or any other cartridge that has been out over twenty years is out dated & needs to be upgraded just like & computer does?
I also shoot a 300-win mag. Do I need it? NO. I could get by with my 270-winchester. I bought the 300-win mag about 20-years ago. I figured I just had to have a big magnum at that time to kill elk with? I was young at the time with a few elk under my belt with my 30-30 & 270-winchester, but big manums were cool.[8D]
I am older now with plenty more elk under my belt. Right now I am looking for a lightweight "do-it-all" rifle. I am thinking about going back to my old 270 or buying a new 280-Remington???
I would still use my 300-win mag from time to time, just not on everything.
04-23-2004, 09:33 AM
#4
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location:
Posts: 175
RE: Power vs. shot placement
The perfect gun/caliber is the one you can shoot. Bullet placement is the key. If you place the bullet right you can kill an elk with a 22 LR. I have a 300 RUM but I have killed more elk with my "out dated" 30.06. I have to say the 30.06 is the best gun I have.
04-23-2004, 03:11 PM
#5
Typical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location:
Posts: 549
RE: Power vs. shot placement
I see in turn I've hit a nerve with elkamp. Complicated or not most unexperienced or first time hunters I would not suggest a magnum class rifle for until they have learned how to shoot then upgrade if they feel the need. Starting someone out with a caliber that has over 34lbs of recoil is not going to build solid shooting skills. If you can shoot big calibers really well all the better. But some hunters can't even shoot smaller rifles well. Does that mean they should upgrade to a really big magnum incase they hit an elk in the ass. No it means they should spend more time at the range.
Yes accuracy and power can be in the same gun in the right hands. But the point is all magazine writers and most hunters are saying you have to have a magnum to kill elk size game. That is where the real myth lies. The only reason they are saying that is one to promote new calibers which is understandable and the other is most of them can't shoot.
In today's hunting world with accessability of information and gear. There should be no reason for people to not be able to shoot well. Only the lack shooting causes this. I still say power is no substitute for shot placement.
If some get offended then so be it.
The really sad part is we are talking about shots under 200yds. In todays rifle with a decent rest of somekind out in the field theres no excuse for a bad shot. Spend a decade or two guiding hunters and you'll no exactly where i'm coming from.
Yes accuracy and power can be in the same gun in the right hands. But the point is all magazine writers and most hunters are saying you have to have a magnum to kill elk size game. That is where the real myth lies. The only reason they are saying that is one to promote new calibers which is understandable and the other is most of them can't shoot.
In today's hunting world with accessability of information and gear. There should be no reason for people to not be able to shoot well. Only the lack shooting causes this. I still say power is no substitute for shot placement.
If some get offended then so be it.
The really sad part is we are talking about shots under 200yds. In todays rifle with a decent rest of somekind out in the field theres no excuse for a bad shot. Spend a decade or two guiding hunters and you'll no exactly where i'm coming from.
04-23-2004, 03:49 PM
#6
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Saskatchewan Canada
Posts: 6,921
RE: Power vs. shot placement
Something else to consider shooting well on paper doesn't always transpire to the field either. There are those who can't control the rush of emotions when they have an animal in the crosshairs and therefore miss or make poor shots at very close range...otherwise known as buck fever. The only cure for this is experience and talking oneself through the shot, I think far to often hunters make the mistake of not thinking, they quickly raise and fire b/c they feel the game will not stay or get closer to offer a better/more calculated shot. On the same token there are those who rely on a bigger gun to take marginal shots, which will never materialize to better results...a poor shot is just that! I certainly agree shooting a smaller weapon is more useful or a better choice than picking a rifle in which you can't handle in hopes error will be outweighted by the power in which the projectile is launched. I also will not disagree that if a individual can shoot the power and be accurate he/she will have more options come hunting time and find true use with the extra umf. However all to many buy a gun b/c someone says it can or the ballistic say it can but in reality no way will they ever harness or use that potential. It is a equal trade off between useful and useless power which can only be based on that individual. I might add certain calibers should not be considered adequate for larger game, the old saying of plenty of moose have been killed by a 243 or 3030 really doesn't make it the best choice, I would agrue using a weapon that is under powered or marginal is no better than a big gun for the error factor. I do believe min. standards should apply to the game your hunting but don't think it needs to be a big bore or have a magnum in the name to make the list!
Personally I have picked a balance of both accuracy, power and best choice for application. Number 1 - I must feel confident with the weapon and this includes being able to handle the report and in turn shooting it to my accuracy expectation. Number 2 - power is enough for what and how I plan to use that weapon. Number 3 - I will set up limitation based on my/guns ability and stick to them for the game in which I hunt/ Number 4 - will always match the bullet to the game/application.
Personally I have picked a balance of both accuracy, power and best choice for application. Number 1 - I must feel confident with the weapon and this includes being able to handle the report and in turn shooting it to my accuracy expectation. Number 2 - power is enough for what and how I plan to use that weapon. Number 3 - I will set up limitation based on my/guns ability and stick to them for the game in which I hunt/ Number 4 - will always match the bullet to the game/application.
04-23-2004, 04:02 PM
#7
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,679
RE: Power vs. shot placement
Cherokee, I couldn't agree with you more.
All of the time I see people in the gun and sporting goods stores looking to buy their first rifle. Judging from the questions they ask about the guns, to how they handle the guns, to the questions about ammo, they haven't got the first clue in hunting, marksmanship, gun safety or anything else. But they just gotta have the latest and greatest super magnum when a 30-06 would probably serve the much much better.
The animals this country offers are not exactly that tough to kill. Even the mighty elk.
Big chunks of lead at super fast speeds will never be a replacement for being able to shoot your rifle and put that bullet where it belongs.
I just made myself a 300 WSM but have used a .270 so far and will continue to use it every so often for elk hunting. Do I need a 300 to kill elk. Absolutely not. But I wanted a 30 cal rifle that will shoot medium weight bullet (165 - 180 grain) in the neighborhood of 3000 fps. Medium weight bullets and a velocity of aprox. 3000 fps seem to be a very good happy comprimise for any game that I would be hunting. It will allow me to deliver the bullet to 300+- yards with out needing to "hold over".
BTW, I stayed at a Holiday in express last night so don't try to argue this point!!!!!!!!
All of the time I see people in the gun and sporting goods stores looking to buy their first rifle. Judging from the questions they ask about the guns, to how they handle the guns, to the questions about ammo, they haven't got the first clue in hunting, marksmanship, gun safety or anything else. But they just gotta have the latest and greatest super magnum when a 30-06 would probably serve the much much better.
The animals this country offers are not exactly that tough to kill. Even the mighty elk.
Big chunks of lead at super fast speeds will never be a replacement for being able to shoot your rifle and put that bullet where it belongs.
I just made myself a 300 WSM but have used a .270 so far and will continue to use it every so often for elk hunting. Do I need a 300 to kill elk. Absolutely not. But I wanted a 30 cal rifle that will shoot medium weight bullet (165 - 180 grain) in the neighborhood of 3000 fps. Medium weight bullets and a velocity of aprox. 3000 fps seem to be a very good happy comprimise for any game that I would be hunting. It will allow me to deliver the bullet to 300+- yards with out needing to "hold over".
BTW, I stayed at a Holiday in express last night so don't try to argue this point!!!!!!!!
04-23-2004, 05:06 PM
#8
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Oregon USA
Posts: 51
RE: Power vs. shot placement
I believe this whole thing got started when the hunting magazines started to switch from telling hunting stories to selling and marketing. I was a boy when Elmer Keith and Jack 0' connor debated. I read every issue of Petersen Hunting, Shooting Times and Outdoor Life back then. Had them delivered right my door. I no longer subscribe to anything. The gun manufactures and big outdoors suppliers like Cabala’s and others started to drive the hunting world through there advertising and marketing. I can prove this as I have many old issues of Outdoor life, shooting times and Peterson’s Hunting. I even have some authors saying different things about rifle calibers then what they say now! This is just my opinion but I think we are being duped..
My grandfather used a 30-40 Krag, my Dad used a 30-06 and all my Uncle’s used 300 Savage’s These were used for Deer, Elk., and Black Bear. It Just worked. I know a lot of young bucks who buy 338 winchester magnum or other wiz bang magnums so that they can use it some day if they get the chance to go up to Alaska and hunt Bear. Some even think they need them for Deer! The problem is that they can’t afford to go and they use it in the Deer season. Big and Heavy rifles they are. If you hunt in the lower 48, you can hunt anything with a standard non Magnum round. What do I use ? I use a 308 Winchester, 30-30, and 22 Hornet.
My grandfather used a 30-40 Krag, my Dad used a 30-06 and all my Uncle’s used 300 Savage’s These were used for Deer, Elk., and Black Bear. It Just worked. I know a lot of young bucks who buy 338 winchester magnum or other wiz bang magnums so that they can use it some day if they get the chance to go up to Alaska and hunt Bear. Some even think they need them for Deer! The problem is that they can’t afford to go and they use it in the Deer season. Big and Heavy rifles they are. If you hunt in the lower 48, you can hunt anything with a standard non Magnum round. What do I use ? I use a 308 Winchester, 30-30, and 22 Hornet.
04-23-2004, 05:31 PM
#9
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rocky Mountains, Colorado
Posts: 1,964
RE: Power vs. shot placement
bigbulls,
300 W-I-N M-A-G-N-U-M???
I must say, I am appalled!
That said, welcome to the dark side!
You are a tribute to the duality of man!
-------------------
Hornet Man,
You are certainly correct, you can if that is what you choose to shoot, and BTW a 30-06 would be a nice choice.
-------------------
Similarly,
If you are going to drive any where in the lower 48, you can drive anywhere with a 1968 standard, low-performance VW Beetle.
I graduated high school in '71 driving a '68, 360 horse GTO; yeah, a VW Bug would have worked, it would have provided basic boring transportation, but I got to tell you the GTO was, oh, my, just, so, much, b-e-t-t-e-r !!!
BTW, I was deadly accurate hitting those "parking spots" with it too even though, some may have said I was overgunned!
Some like it boring. Some like to "just get by". Some like it hot.
I kinda see rifles the same way!
Good Luck and Good Hunting,
EKM
300 W-I-N M-A-G-N-U-M???
I must say, I am appalled!
That said, welcome to the dark side!
You are a tribute to the duality of man!
-------------------
Hornet Man,
If you hunt in the lower 48, you can hunt anything with a standard non Magnum round.
-------------------
Similarly,
If you are going to drive any where in the lower 48, you can drive anywhere with a 1968 standard, low-performance VW Beetle.
I graduated high school in '71 driving a '68, 360 horse GTO; yeah, a VW Bug would have worked, it would have provided basic boring transportation, but I got to tell you the GTO was, oh, my, just, so, much, b-e-t-t-e-r !!!
BTW, I was deadly accurate hitting those "parking spots" with it too even though, some may have said I was overgunned!
Some like it boring. Some like to "just get by". Some like it hot.
I kinda see rifles the same way!
Good Luck and Good Hunting,
EKM