Trophy Fees - Fair?
02-25-2004, 01:02 PM
#21
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location:
Posts: 10
RE: Trophy Fees - Fair?
Cherokee,
Please don't take what I say as an assult on you! You have to look at it from my point of view. The reality of this issue for American outfitters hunting private land spills over to the African side as well. The way I see it, a couple of Canadian hunters back in the sixties figured that if clients would pay trophy fees in Africa, why wouldn't they pay them in North America as well? Like I stated, the trophy fees my clients pay go, for the most part, to the actual purchase of the animal from the landowner. When I have clients that know of the controversy of North American trophy fees on public lands, they automatically assume I am trying to rip them off by charging more than the hunt is worth. Such is the experience that they may have had, or heard about. Call it something else-Trophy processing fee, prep fee, skinning and packing fee, whatever-but not a trophy fee. The term trophy fee comes from the time when english gentlemen hunted private reserves owned by the crown or others of nobility. The fee was paid to the ghillie, or game warden, as a purchase for the animals taken or wounded. The warden was an employee of the crown or the landowner, and reported to them, as well as having the responsibility of stopping poachers. The trophy fees generally went towards the ghillies salary and upkeep of the land so the owner would always have his hunting land preserved for his use. This was all private land hunting, not public. American outfitters on public land are not purchasing the animal from the state, only the license to hunt it, and the normally incurred fees of the outfitter. The outfitter should word his fee schedule accordingly, letting the client know exactly where his money goes. If you are hunting privately held leases where the owner expects payment for what you take off the property, your client should know that there are trophy fees involved due to this situation. I hope you can see my point on this. I've hunted Colorado several times, usually around Arapaho NF, and been successful on elk several times. My outfitter never once asked for a trophy fee or any other money except what he originally quoted me. Needless to say, he was tipped very generously for the effort and honesty each time. Had he tried to charge me a trophy fee for an animal he had no monetary claim to, He would not have been tipped, and I would not have gone back to him nine years in a row!
Please don't take what I say as an assult on you! You have to look at it from my point of view. The reality of this issue for American outfitters hunting private land spills over to the African side as well. The way I see it, a couple of Canadian hunters back in the sixties figured that if clients would pay trophy fees in Africa, why wouldn't they pay them in North America as well? Like I stated, the trophy fees my clients pay go, for the most part, to the actual purchase of the animal from the landowner. When I have clients that know of the controversy of North American trophy fees on public lands, they automatically assume I am trying to rip them off by charging more than the hunt is worth. Such is the experience that they may have had, or heard about. Call it something else-Trophy processing fee, prep fee, skinning and packing fee, whatever-but not a trophy fee. The term trophy fee comes from the time when english gentlemen hunted private reserves owned by the crown or others of nobility. The fee was paid to the ghillie, or game warden, as a purchase for the animals taken or wounded. The warden was an employee of the crown or the landowner, and reported to them, as well as having the responsibility of stopping poachers. The trophy fees generally went towards the ghillies salary and upkeep of the land so the owner would always have his hunting land preserved for his use. This was all private land hunting, not public. American outfitters on public land are not purchasing the animal from the state, only the license to hunt it, and the normally incurred fees of the outfitter. The outfitter should word his fee schedule accordingly, letting the client know exactly where his money goes. If you are hunting privately held leases where the owner expects payment for what you take off the property, your client should know that there are trophy fees involved due to this situation. I hope you can see my point on this. I've hunted Colorado several times, usually around Arapaho NF, and been successful on elk several times. My outfitter never once asked for a trophy fee or any other money except what he originally quoted me. Needless to say, he was tipped very generously for the effort and honesty each time. Had he tried to charge me a trophy fee for an animal he had no monetary claim to, He would not have been tipped, and I would not have gone back to him nine years in a row!
02-25-2004, 02:07 PM
#22
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 801
RE: Trophy Fees - Fair?
txhunter58 wrote-
I would like to disagree with that statement. The group of hunters I hunt with travel all over every year. When travelling to Iowa this year I choose to lease hunting rights from a farmer at a rate equal to some fully guided hunts. I appreciated the man's honesty with me and the fact he makes a living off his property, so paying him for the right to hunt wasn't an issue at all. We as a group avoid all outfits that charge the "trophy fee", and will and do pay more upfront to hunt prime property.
I can't imagine being in a treestand for 8 hours, for the 4th day in a row and watch 2 bucks walk in on a path ... 1 of them a 130" deer and the other a 140" deer, knowing that if I shoot the 140" deer it will cost me anywhere from $500 to $1000 dollars for a few inches of antler!!! Unless you are making loads more dough than I do .. you would be thinking of shelling out that extra $1,000 instead of suffering from buck fever when all of your hard work and effort results in a shot opportunity.
After reading hhmag's comments-
I can completely understand a person who owns private property and high fences it and grows and develops a herd of formerly wild animals like livestock, charging whatever fee structure he wants to people wanting to shoot them. It is just another form of farming and making a living in my eyes. I'd never do it myself though. In Africa and Europe where the animal is a form of revenue generation for the local people or private land owner it makes sense. Just hope that we here in America don't end up in the same exact boat some day.
Regardless of what people say, if you have 2 reputable outfitters who have similar game, success rates, and references, if 1 charges $2500 with a $500 trophy fee and one charges $3000, I think most would choose the trophy fee outfitter.
I can't imagine being in a treestand for 8 hours, for the 4th day in a row and watch 2 bucks walk in on a path ... 1 of them a 130" deer and the other a 140" deer, knowing that if I shoot the 140" deer it will cost me anywhere from $500 to $1000 dollars for a few inches of antler!!! Unless you are making loads more dough than I do .. you would be thinking of shelling out that extra $1,000 instead of suffering from buck fever when all of your hard work and effort results in a shot opportunity.
After reading hhmag's comments-
I can completely understand a person who owns private property and high fences it and grows and develops a herd of formerly wild animals like livestock, charging whatever fee structure he wants to people wanting to shoot them. It is just another form of farming and making a living in my eyes. I'd never do it myself though. In Africa and Europe where the animal is a form of revenue generation for the local people or private land owner it makes sense. Just hope that we here in America don't end up in the same exact boat some day.
02-25-2004, 06:00 PM
#23
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 94
RE: Trophy Fees - Fair?
Trophy fees to me on public land make no sense at all. I can understand it on private land because this is what the owner of the land wants and that is what he or she should be entitled to. Even though he or she doesn't own the animal, you're hunting on his or her land. I realize outfitters have costs and things never get cheaper, but the animal is not their's it's belongs to the wild until it is harvested by the hunter with the tag, and then it is his or hers regardless of size.
One other thing, that doesn't pertain to trophy fees, is when you decide on a hunt. The guide is subcontracted for a weeks work. If you shoot your bull (or what ever your hunting) on the first day, why does it cost so much to combo another species (bear, mule deer, whitetail). For example if you pay $5,000 for a hunt, you shoot your elk the first or second day. The cost of a deer tag (for sake of arguement) is $300.00, why do some guides charge you $1200.00 or more to take the second animal, when in fact he or she was hired to do a weeks work in the first place. I would think that the person hiring the guide should be able to hunt the second animal for the cost of the tag. Just something that I've often wondered.
One other thing, that doesn't pertain to trophy fees, is when you decide on a hunt. The guide is subcontracted for a weeks work. If you shoot your bull (or what ever your hunting) on the first day, why does it cost so much to combo another species (bear, mule deer, whitetail). For example if you pay $5,000 for a hunt, you shoot your elk the first or second day. The cost of a deer tag (for sake of arguement) is $300.00, why do some guides charge you $1200.00 or more to take the second animal, when in fact he or she was hired to do a weeks work in the first place. I would think that the person hiring the guide should be able to hunt the second animal for the cost of the tag. Just something that I've often wondered.
02-26-2004, 07:00 AM
#25
Typical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location:
Posts: 549
RE: Trophy Fees - Fair?
Your right hhmag no offense taken here. We give our people the best hunt they can have. I may be in the wrong in most people eyes for charging a fee for an elk in the class range it would take them 10yrs to draw in a trophy unit. In truth this is our first year to charge this fee and its all about trial and error. Maybe this is an error. We actually thought it would be more incentive for clients vs. going with outfitters that runs tons of hunters without much success. I don't mind the reply's it has definitly had an impact on my ethics issues on trophy fees. And in most cases what the people are saying is true.
02-27-2004, 07:14 AM
#26
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Lee , New Hampshire
Posts: 312
RE: Trophy Fees - Fair?
Cherokee you give the impression of a good guide and would not hesitate to book with you. Maybe one day we can hook up.
You know what would solve all of this? Find a guide you TRUST and hire him for the week..period.
I have done the math for a couple of Canadian Guides and unless I missed something those boys are making a Good Living..no were near what you are talking about. There overhead is there trucks, hired help($150/day) and camp cook.
$4000 per hunter 8 per week/ 3 or 4 weeks long then they do Bear hunts & Moose hunts. Not bad numbers?
You know what would solve all of this? Find a guide you TRUST and hire him for the week..period.
I have done the math for a couple of Canadian Guides and unless I missed something those boys are making a Good Living..no were near what you are talking about. There overhead is there trucks, hired help($150/day) and camp cook.
$4000 per hunter 8 per week/ 3 or 4 weeks long then they do Bear hunts & Moose hunts. Not bad numbers?
02-27-2004, 08:40 AM
#27
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location:
Posts: 10
RE: Trophy Fees - Fair?
Some of those Canadians are true artists! We only book one client or group (meaning a group of friends that books together) at a time. We want our clients to get all of our attention. I never go more than 2 hunters/1 PH on any trip, even if I have to put on extra help. I can't see paying 4 grand for someone to drop me off in the woods, telling me "he oughta be comin' from those trees over there, wait here till you see him. I'll be back at dark, I gotta go drop the rest of these guys off." That's crap. I do twice the work of the client when we are afield. That's what I get paid for.
