Want To Go Elk Hunting, But....
11-10-2003, 08:22 PM
#11
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Auburn WA.
Posts: 1,396
RE: Want To Go Elk Hunting, But....
kid can make a fortune with a lawn mower and a shovel if he wants to do a little work.
Back to the ethics part, I live in a semi-rural area and people look at me like I' m some kind of idiot when I tell them I like to grow a garden in part to make life a little more difficult. By growing as much of my own food as possible,and to hunt for a decent portion of my yearly meat. I make every effort to teach my 2 yr old Daughter that everything doesn' t come from Safeways or Walmart. She watched me skin my deer the past 2 years, we always go to an actual pumpkin patch at Halloween, and we always go up into the mountains to get our Christmas tree. To many people like all the conveiences of modern life, but frankly I wish I was born about 100 years ago instead of now
11-11-2003, 10:46 AM
#13
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 6,471
RE: Want To Go Elk Hunting, But....
Speaking for myself my first Elk hunt was no picnic...it was miserable weather hiking in 2 feet of snow for a week in the Bitteroots. Nothing I could have read or heard from anyone could have prepared me for that experience and I came away knowing that Elk Hunting was tougher than any other hunting I had done until then but something kept drawing me back and back. I guess knowing that there are x obstacles to overcome before you get a Bull/COw in your sights and you simply have to overcome them. I don' t know that there is a good way to " Weed" out prospective hunting companions unless you take them on a trip or two and see how they fit in ...there are people that nothing bothers and there are the constant complainers no way to find out until your in the thick of things..
11-11-2003, 09:06 PM
#15
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location:
Posts: 582
RE: Want To Go Elk Hunting, But....
Totally honest txhunter, and my attitude gets me into alot of arguments in my classes. I just get absolutely disgusted, and that' s when I stop being a political science student and start being a real a$$hole. People think work is a nuisance. I had to study Karl Marx last year, we read his manifesto on communism in a class. Well we get to the end of the reading, and are obviously discussing it. Well, my professor opines that this would be an incredible society, everyone only has to work five hours a day, class lines are blurred, our creativity is free to be used for the better part of the day! What a crock. I was so red that I went from student forming appropriate arguments to preaching about a hard day' s work and justifying what she called a " protestant ethic engrained in the redneck society," eventually walking out of class, while most of the rest of the class agreed that work lends no intrinsic value, it is just a necessary evil. I mean, not everyone in my generation is like this, but it is so prevelant and accepted that I worry we are becoming very much like Europe. Things would make so much more sense to me if I were born in 1860......
11-12-2003, 07:37 AM
#16
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Walled Lake MI USA
Posts: 73
RE: Want To Go Elk Hunting, But....
Where to begin...
Most of us live in a society that is bounded and motivated by instant gratification - which has infected the culture of hunters and hunting. Patience hardly exists anymore and thus the advent of technology (quad runners, GPS, cell phones etc) take away somewhat IMO from the hunting experience. If one can' t get on a herd or spot a buck in the first hours of the hunt, all is lost - frustration sets in and it is time to pack it in - somehow the videos failed them. As EKM says...cowboy up and deal with it. Search it out and find what you are looking for. And sometimes, you won' t find a thing but when you do, there won' t be a better experience in your memory books - because you used your skills to accomplish the task.
While I do admit that these luxuries I mentioned above can prove to be valuable tools at times and might save your butt, but if you take a minute and really examine your personal capabilities w/r/t hunting they are totally unnecessary. A weapon, pack (with appropriate supplies), good boots/cloths, a compass and an even head (mental toughness), and physical conditioning, is enough.
EKM - being as prepared as you are, it must be mighty disheartening to run into those who are oblivious to their share of camp/hunt responsibilities. Though i understand your " price" related line of questions/comments, I guess, I don' t see it in terms of price - it is responsibility, ethic, duty, sportsmanship, etc. that are all bound up into the hunting experience or lifestyle, if you will. Good post.
Enough spouting from me
Most of us live in a society that is bounded and motivated by instant gratification - which has infected the culture of hunters and hunting. Patience hardly exists anymore and thus the advent of technology (quad runners, GPS, cell phones etc) take away somewhat IMO from the hunting experience. If one can' t get on a herd or spot a buck in the first hours of the hunt, all is lost - frustration sets in and it is time to pack it in - somehow the videos failed them. As EKM says...cowboy up and deal with it. Search it out and find what you are looking for. And sometimes, you won' t find a thing but when you do, there won' t be a better experience in your memory books - because you used your skills to accomplish the task.
While I do admit that these luxuries I mentioned above can prove to be valuable tools at times and might save your butt, but if you take a minute and really examine your personal capabilities w/r/t hunting they are totally unnecessary. A weapon, pack (with appropriate supplies), good boots/cloths, a compass and an even head (mental toughness), and physical conditioning, is enough.
EKM - being as prepared as you are, it must be mighty disheartening to run into those who are oblivious to their share of camp/hunt responsibilities. Though i understand your " price" related line of questions/comments, I guess, I don' t see it in terms of price - it is responsibility, ethic, duty, sportsmanship, etc. that are all bound up into the hunting experience or lifestyle, if you will. Good post.
Enough spouting from me
11-12-2003, 08:16 AM
#17
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,395
RE: Want To Go Elk Hunting, But....
ELKampMaster
I remember you posting about a older gentleman that joined your camp this year. I can not remeber word for word what your post said about this older gentleman so forgive me but please correct me if I am wrong. I think you said he would be in good enough shape just to ride into your camp. After he took a " scenic tour" you gaurded your jaw. He said hay thats elk hunting. He was cowboy enough to suck it up and ride. That is the kind of person I want to hunt with. I hope he ended up with his elk. He sounds like the kind of person we all want/need in our camps.
I remember you posting about a older gentleman that joined your camp this year. I can not remeber word for word what your post said about this older gentleman so forgive me but please correct me if I am wrong. I think you said he would be in good enough shape just to ride into your camp. After he took a " scenic tour" you gaurded your jaw. He said hay thats elk hunting. He was cowboy enough to suck it up and ride. That is the kind of person I want to hunt with. I hope he ended up with his elk. He sounds like the kind of person we all want/need in our camps.
11-12-2003, 11:17 PM
#18
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rocky Mountains, Colorado
Posts: 1,964
RE: Want To Go Elk Hunting, But....
Wow,
I' ve been gone a few days, I had posted this and it just sat there for a while, and I thought perhaps I had gotten off on a tangent that only I saw -- I appreciate all your responses. Just so you know, this years group of folks I had hunt with me were the best to date, just kind of a small group and I' ve had to say no to a lot of folks (family, acquaintances, etc) that hear we had some fairly consistent success and now they want to go along.... I' m a little depressed that when it comes to " away from home" /remote big game hunting that there really are very few able and willing " players" to be found!
BigBore1895,
If you read the Greek literature from the time of Socrates (in his day the equivalent of a 1960' s radical insofar as his influence on the youth of his day and questioning the establishment) you can hear the same " the new generation is going all to hell" theme you are hearing today, so nothing new there. Don' t discredit your generation too much, they are adapting to the world they live in which is a more urbanized, technical/digital, and " don' t get your hands dirty" world. The " newer" generations may have a higher proportion, but it still a mix of good and bad -- just got to keep looking for the good. Regardless what' s happening now, our young people did kick " booty" in Iraq!
Wolf Killer,
It was BeaverJack that first floated the idea of folks being " in love with the idea of hunting" but not with " doing the hunting" -- it was a distinction that sharpened my focus on this issue. It' s interesting to watch posts and speculate which " camp" the author is " coming from" .
Our " sore horseman" did not get his elk (although he had gotten one in other years). He had three chances and took some shots and (hopefully) did not connect, I was packing meat, so I wasn' t there to check it all out. I think he knew something was " off" either the rifle or himself. To his credit, late on the third day he had 30 head file below him. He said, " It was too late in the day, if things didn' t go " just right" it was going to be a mess, at that point I just sat there and watched them which was pure joy -- there' s always next year." (I likely wouldn' t have been so kind!) I just found this out (now 3 weeks later). This guy' s stock just keeps going up and he' s a shoo in for next year.
Sigma,
Yeah, I think there is something to the " instant gratification/entertainment" factor (follow up post).
EKM
I' ve been gone a few days, I had posted this and it just sat there for a while, and I thought perhaps I had gotten off on a tangent that only I saw -- I appreciate all your responses. Just so you know, this years group of folks I had hunt with me were the best to date, just kind of a small group and I' ve had to say no to a lot of folks (family, acquaintances, etc) that hear we had some fairly consistent success and now they want to go along.... I' m a little depressed that when it comes to " away from home" /remote big game hunting that there really are very few able and willing " players" to be found!
BigBore1895,
If you read the Greek literature from the time of Socrates (in his day the equivalent of a 1960' s radical insofar as his influence on the youth of his day and questioning the establishment) you can hear the same " the new generation is going all to hell" theme you are hearing today, so nothing new there. Don' t discredit your generation too much, they are adapting to the world they live in which is a more urbanized, technical/digital, and " don' t get your hands dirty" world. The " newer" generations may have a higher proportion, but it still a mix of good and bad -- just got to keep looking for the good. Regardless what' s happening now, our young people did kick " booty" in Iraq!
Wolf Killer,
It was BeaverJack that first floated the idea of folks being " in love with the idea of hunting" but not with " doing the hunting" -- it was a distinction that sharpened my focus on this issue. It' s interesting to watch posts and speculate which " camp" the author is " coming from" .
Our " sore horseman" did not get his elk (although he had gotten one in other years). He had three chances and took some shots and (hopefully) did not connect, I was packing meat, so I wasn' t there to check it all out. I think he knew something was " off" either the rifle or himself. To his credit, late on the third day he had 30 head file below him. He said, " It was too late in the day, if things didn' t go " just right" it was going to be a mess, at that point I just sat there and watched them which was pure joy -- there' s always next year." (I likely wouldn' t have been so kind!) I just found this out (now 3 weeks later). This guy' s stock just keeps going up and he' s a shoo in for next year.
Sigma,
Yeah, I think there is something to the " instant gratification/entertainment" factor (follow up post).
EKM
11-12-2003, 11:32 PM
#19
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rocky Mountains, Colorado
Posts: 1,964
RE: Want To Go Elk Hunting, But....
Here is an " angle" to consider:
Entertainment vs. (Adventure and Misadventure and Discomfort)
Cable TV, movies, ball games, puck games, and cruise ships are prime examples of American entertainment. Entertainment implies one is going to be passively amused, with a packaged and predictable experience that is served up on a silver platter -- just show up and take it in. There is nothing wrong with entertainment by itself and I enjoy a good cruise as much as anyone (especially that trip to Alaska), but….the problem arises when folks “sign up” for a " away from home" /remote big game hunt (especially non-guided) thinking they are going to be entertained and then run right smack into some of the realities that accompany a remote/away from home big game adventure!
Big game hunting is NOT entertainment per se, although at any one moment it can be VERY entertaining. Most of these folks fail to realize that a " away from home" /remote big game hunting ADVENTURE has an ever present pair of associates named “mis-adventure” and “discomfort.” Almost assuredly, the price of adventure involves enduring one or both of these two pesky side kicks.
Mention a remote elk hunt to many and attractive images flash by: beautiful mountain country, click (never mind that its cold and windy and your lungs and knees are both burning from a long uphill slog); a beautiful 6x6 bull elk in a little alpine meadow water hole, striking a perfect broadside “whitetail” pose with water dripping from its mouth, and the white tips of his rack gleaming in the sun, click (never mind your sore feet and sore joints and the dead falls you struggled through to get there and dust you inhaled along that powdered trail that now streaks your “spit” black); sitting around the campfire recalling the days events, click (never mind that you are dog beat tired, popping Advil, worrying about what might be a cold lurking in the background and then hoping you’ll have the wherewithall to get up (without a cold or a cough) and do it again in the middle of the night (morning) tomorrow).
" Hey, wait a minute, I didn’t sign up for THIS, I signed up for the OTHER (fun) stuff…."
The mate to adventure is MIS-adventure AND you don’t normally get one without the getting some of the other and if you do then it likely will be a not very memorable outing! Misadventure is all the things that don’t go right, surprises, injuries, weather, breakdowns, rodeos, and game that don’t always die like they are supposed to! These events threaten the success of your adventure, test your will and attempt to defeat your goals. Sometimes it involves enduring pure misery to prevail over these challenges --- fortunately the pain of such moments passes quickly for those who have the mental toughness to know that, “This will too pass.” OR “I’ve seen this before” OR “If others can handle it, then I can handle it, I just got to be tough, have a ‘can do’ attitude, and play it the best I can.” (i.e. “cowboy up”). These are the events the evoke adrenaline spike, fear, razor sharp alertness, grit, and determination. Yet, when it is all over, these misadventures/mental-physical discomforts, once overcome and dealt with, in combination with the inherent positives of a hunting adventure are what make the whole thing rich, real, rewarding, and yes --- memorable. Not everyone has got the required approach/attitude/mental toughness for a high altitude Rocky Mountain elk hunt and I haven’t yet figured out how to fully predict it, it doesn’t seem necessarily follow age, weight, fitness or even “experience” BUT making sure folks understand the difference between an elk hunt being adventure/misadventure/discomfort and NOT entertainment is certainly a first step.
So what do you think would be some good criteria????
Boy Scouts/Winter Camping Experience?
Hunt and Dress Their Own Deer?
Do Their Own Butchering?
Mountain Climbing (In Colorado We Call It " Bagging 14er' s" )
Etc.
Never Go Undergunned, Always Check The Sight In, Perform At Showtime,
EKM
Entertainment vs. (Adventure and Misadventure and Discomfort)
Cable TV, movies, ball games, puck games, and cruise ships are prime examples of American entertainment. Entertainment implies one is going to be passively amused, with a packaged and predictable experience that is served up on a silver platter -- just show up and take it in. There is nothing wrong with entertainment by itself and I enjoy a good cruise as much as anyone (especially that trip to Alaska), but….the problem arises when folks “sign up” for a " away from home" /remote big game hunt (especially non-guided) thinking they are going to be entertained and then run right smack into some of the realities that accompany a remote/away from home big game adventure!
Big game hunting is NOT entertainment per se, although at any one moment it can be VERY entertaining. Most of these folks fail to realize that a " away from home" /remote big game hunting ADVENTURE has an ever present pair of associates named “mis-adventure” and “discomfort.” Almost assuredly, the price of adventure involves enduring one or both of these two pesky side kicks.
Mention a remote elk hunt to many and attractive images flash by: beautiful mountain country, click (never mind that its cold and windy and your lungs and knees are both burning from a long uphill slog); a beautiful 6x6 bull elk in a little alpine meadow water hole, striking a perfect broadside “whitetail” pose with water dripping from its mouth, and the white tips of his rack gleaming in the sun, click (never mind your sore feet and sore joints and the dead falls you struggled through to get there and dust you inhaled along that powdered trail that now streaks your “spit” black); sitting around the campfire recalling the days events, click (never mind that you are dog beat tired, popping Advil, worrying about what might be a cold lurking in the background and then hoping you’ll have the wherewithall to get up (without a cold or a cough) and do it again in the middle of the night (morning) tomorrow).
" Hey, wait a minute, I didn’t sign up for THIS, I signed up for the OTHER (fun) stuff…."
The mate to adventure is MIS-adventure AND you don’t normally get one without the getting some of the other and if you do then it likely will be a not very memorable outing! Misadventure is all the things that don’t go right, surprises, injuries, weather, breakdowns, rodeos, and game that don’t always die like they are supposed to! These events threaten the success of your adventure, test your will and attempt to defeat your goals. Sometimes it involves enduring pure misery to prevail over these challenges --- fortunately the pain of such moments passes quickly for those who have the mental toughness to know that, “This will too pass.” OR “I’ve seen this before” OR “If others can handle it, then I can handle it, I just got to be tough, have a ‘can do’ attitude, and play it the best I can.” (i.e. “cowboy up”). These are the events the evoke adrenaline spike, fear, razor sharp alertness, grit, and determination. Yet, when it is all over, these misadventures/mental-physical discomforts, once overcome and dealt with, in combination with the inherent positives of a hunting adventure are what make the whole thing rich, real, rewarding, and yes --- memorable. Not everyone has got the required approach/attitude/mental toughness for a high altitude Rocky Mountain elk hunt and I haven’t yet figured out how to fully predict it, it doesn’t seem necessarily follow age, weight, fitness or even “experience” BUT making sure folks understand the difference between an elk hunt being adventure/misadventure/discomfort and NOT entertainment is certainly a first step.
So what do you think would be some good criteria????
Boy Scouts/Winter Camping Experience?
Hunt and Dress Their Own Deer?
Do Their Own Butchering?
Mountain Climbing (In Colorado We Call It " Bagging 14er' s" )
Etc.
Never Go Undergunned, Always Check The Sight In, Perform At Showtime,
EKM
11-24-2003, 10:05 AM
#20
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location:
Posts: 1
Very interesting discussion.....
I' ve found this to be a very interesting discussion. I probably fit into the category of someone you wouldn' t want to take hunting with you, tho.
I grew up in and still live in suburbia, but have always loved the outdoors and would go camping, hiking, etc. whenever I could. It wasn' t until my early 20s that I really gave much thought to hunting, but that wasn' t because of my love of the outdoors... I spent years struggeling with the ethics questions with regard to eating meat, hunting, vegetarianism, etc. It wasn' t until I read Ted Kerasote' s book ' Bloodties' that I finally got the ethical considerations worked out for myself. My conclusion was there certainly isn' t anything wrong with harvesting of animals for sustinance, etc., but that for one to ethically consume an animal, one must be willing to do the work that hunting requires.
I grew up in a bleeding-heart liberal household and couldn' t have toy soldiers or guns, muchless have my father teach me to shoot or take me hunting (he hunted as a kid, and served in korea and vietnam and certainly had the skills himself). I found a local fellow that helped me for a couple years with shooting and taking me squirrel hunting. After a couple years of not doing any hunting myself, I came across someone that I' ve adopted as a mentor. I just got back from a couple days deer hunting with him - I saw a few does, but there wasn' t enough light to shoot ' em on one night. Next day, I was expecting the deer to be coming out of the national forest where there was a lot of hunting pressure, so I got myself situated on top of a ridge with a good view of the paths from the nat' l forest, but instead had a deer come up from behind me and scent me. My buddy, though, got a nice buck that took us about 5 hrs to get out of the woods.
I probably have ended up more of a person that loves the work involved in hunting-- the process of hunting is far more important to me than actually getting anything. The connections to nature, learning to understand game behavior, the exhaustion after pushing yourself farther than you would have had it just been a simple leisurely hike, working through the mental states that in other situations might convince one to give up, and learning to focus your attention on things that otherwise would pass unnoticed....
Someday, I hope that I can expand myself to the point where I can go further than just the 5 hours away that I hunted this weekend- I would love to take a trip out west someda- and hope that I am a good enough hunter to hunt species like elk one day, but I' m probably not there yet.
Thanks for listening to my ramblings....
-matthew
I grew up in and still live in suburbia, but have always loved the outdoors and would go camping, hiking, etc. whenever I could. It wasn' t until my early 20s that I really gave much thought to hunting, but that wasn' t because of my love of the outdoors... I spent years struggeling with the ethics questions with regard to eating meat, hunting, vegetarianism, etc. It wasn' t until I read Ted Kerasote' s book ' Bloodties' that I finally got the ethical considerations worked out for myself. My conclusion was there certainly isn' t anything wrong with harvesting of animals for sustinance, etc., but that for one to ethically consume an animal, one must be willing to do the work that hunting requires.
I grew up in a bleeding-heart liberal household and couldn' t have toy soldiers or guns, muchless have my father teach me to shoot or take me hunting (he hunted as a kid, and served in korea and vietnam and certainly had the skills himself). I found a local fellow that helped me for a couple years with shooting and taking me squirrel hunting. After a couple years of not doing any hunting myself, I came across someone that I' ve adopted as a mentor. I just got back from a couple days deer hunting with him - I saw a few does, but there wasn' t enough light to shoot ' em on one night. Next day, I was expecting the deer to be coming out of the national forest where there was a lot of hunting pressure, so I got myself situated on top of a ridge with a good view of the paths from the nat' l forest, but instead had a deer come up from behind me and scent me. My buddy, though, got a nice buck that took us about 5 hrs to get out of the woods.
I probably have ended up more of a person that loves the work involved in hunting-- the process of hunting is far more important to me than actually getting anything. The connections to nature, learning to understand game behavior, the exhaustion after pushing yourself farther than you would have had it just been a simple leisurely hike, working through the mental states that in other situations might convince one to give up, and learning to focus your attention on things that otherwise would pass unnoticed....
Someday, I hope that I can expand myself to the point where I can go further than just the 5 hours away that I hunted this weekend- I would love to take a trip out west someda- and hope that I am a good enough hunter to hunt species like elk one day, but I' m probably not there yet.
Thanks for listening to my ramblings....
-matthew