DreaminBoutElk

I' m curious about the general feeling of the folks on this board regarding muzzleloaders. I watch alot of hunting shows that are sponsored by Knight, T/C and some other makers of high tech front stuffers. It seems that the technology of m/l' s have advanced to the point that it' s no longer anywhere near being a primitive weapon anymore. Pyrodex pellets, low smoke black powder, high tech sabots and bullets, inline primers make reloading very fast. Ranges with scoped guns and high tech bullets are getting out past 200 yds with guns now capable of 1minute accuracy. My concern here is that many states have early elk seasons for m/l' s that allow hunting during the rut. My understand of this is to allow an advantage for the " primitive weapons" With some of these new guns it' s nearly the equivalent of hunting with a single shot HP rifle. I have seen some restrictions on primer systems and scopes in various states. Any of you muzzle loading types got a point of view on this? (there' s a loaded question!!)

oldelkhunter

Good point Dreaminbout, no the likes of the current crop of high tech muzzleloaders are closer to centerfire than ever and comparing one to the old hawken is like comparing a longbow to a brandxx barnburner compound. They still have to be shot and loaded one at a time and it still takes a while to load them especially with those great sabots so they are somewhat of a disadvantage compared to a centerfire shooter. I think you' ;ll find that if they really start dinging up the herd during their " primitive" season that they will be restricted by having fewer days to hunt or even moved to their own season if it continues. I am perfectly content with either an inline or a hawken style rifle shooting straight blackpowder or pyrodex out of a can and using iron sights. I personally don' t think the use of scopes should be allowed period during any muzzleloader season. I am going to catch flak for that from shooters that use them but I don' t really care, they are wrong and they don' t belong on a blackpowder weapon. On the other hand with the current crop of ultramags and superior optics,rangefinders and specialty rifles modern gun hunters have really extended their range. Todays hunter I guess maybe I was born 50 years to late.

rather_be_huntin

I basically agree with oldelkhunter. I would like to see more " primitive" weapons used and get rid of the scopes. I wouldn' t go as far as saying its wrong but it definitely takes away from what its supposed to be about. I' ve been putting in for a muzzleloader tag and if I draw I' m going to use an old flintlock and I' m going to use a ball, none of this saboted, power belted stuff. I heard someone say once America doesn' t need more laws, it needs more citizens. Hunting doesn' t need more laws either, we need more hunters. Just people who care about preserving hunting the way its supposed to be. I' ll get off my soap box now.

Jorgy

I do hunt with muzzleloader in Colorado for elk, and I think over time that more states will start to adopt what Colorado does, no scopes or sabots, that pretty much eliminates any advantage that they have over the " older" versions of blackpowder.

Me though, I would allow for non-magnification scopes since my eyes have a hard time with open sights. Damn stigmatism!

BareBack Jack

I don' t think in-lines should be alowed for hunting in M/L season.A gun capable of 200+ yard kills is not primitive.It' s like here in Montana with crossbows,if you want to use one you can do it during rifle season,or hunt with a handgun in HG/Shotgun areas it has to be a strait wall cartrige made orignaly for a HG.Not a bottle neck out of a Encore or somthing.

You can still load a Ruger #1 one shot at a time how come it is not considered a primitive weapon,it opprates almost the same as the Omega by T/C,drop the lever and put in the primer and fire.

bigbulls

Personally, I don' t think any thing we use to hunt today could be considered " primitive" . Except for a long bow. Any gun that uses black powder or smokeless powder to fire a chunk of lead is no where near being " primitive" wether you use flint lock, side lock, or in line.

In the evolution of the human race, black powder and the gun are pretty dang modern. They have only been around for a couple hundred years.
Back in the day, sure but " primitive, not even close.

I have used both side locks (Hawken) and inlines and find no speed advantage in loading an inline. In fact it can sometimes be a little troublesome to get that primer on with an inline. Also if you don' t have the sabots in a speed losder then you essentially have to load two projectiles instead of one lead bullet. Much slower.

Jorgy, One more thing to add to Colorado law concerning muzzleloading rifles is that you can not use pelletized powder, it must be in powder form. Nor can you use smokeless powder (Savage). The bullets also have to be full bore and can be a maximum length of twice the diameter.

A thought on shooting an elk at 200 yards with a ML. Very few muzzleloaders can get a bullet up to 2000 fps. and when they do it is with a 150 grain charge, a very long barrel, and a very light bullet. Not something I would want to use on a 700 pound elk at 75 yards much less 200 yards. By the time it gets there all of that speed has gone by by and your energy level has done the same. With the slow speeds ML' s generate it is far better to use a projectile that is heavy enough to deliver some punch and use some common sence with the range.

zacko

Colorado also doesn' t allow Pyrodex. And up until 2 years ago didn' t allow in-lines. Which brings up a question, what is the advantage of an in-line? BareBackJack says we ought not allow them. But do they really have that much better of a range? I mean the old Hawken rifle I had was probably capable of a kill over 100 yards but I wouldn' t have felt comfortable shooting it that far. (As if I could hit anything past 100 yards with open sights.)
My opinion is that you get more " better" hunters during the muzzle loader hunt. By that I mean it is guys that are capable of getting the sub 100 yard shots. Not these guys who sit on a rock and lob artillery at something 300 yards away.

Jorgy

Yes they do, you just can' t have the pre-formed pellets

ColoradoElk

Last weekend I ran into three fellows at the range shooting blackpowder and boy were they opinionated!!! They were pleasant, but they sure as heck don' t want anything other than black powder and frontstuffers used in the ML season. What they were saying made alot of sense to me. As mentioned, in CO no pelletized powder, open sights only, and I think it has to be .54 for Elk. Plus, they get an entire month to hunt, during the middle of the rut! It is easy to see why people would want to get a centerfire equivalent in there, but, I dont think they should be legal for ML season.

glob3006

Iam from Colorado and hunt during ML season.There seems to be some confusion on our regulations.

NO scopes
NO pellets Pyrodex is OK
NO sabots and projectile must not exceed twice the diam.
40cal min on deer, bear, ' lopes
50cal min for Elk,Moose
and the season is only 1 week not 1month.It starts in the middle of bow season and that does not make the bow hunters

As for the ? I don' t believe that my side-lock is as primitive as throwing rocks.But it' s a darn sight more primitive than one of these " magnum" inlines!!!!!!

But with that said....this is Colorado and the rules that we must follow just about make it even(Weather not with-standing).If you can HONESTLY shoot a ML ACCURATLY at 200yrds well MR.Boone and MR.Crockett would be proud!!!!

It will make you a better hunter!!