rather_be_huntin

Skeeter your method of hunting is not wrong in my view whatsoever and I didn' t mean to come accross that way. I' m not one to say my way is the only way. I agree that we all have our own " ways" and thats the way it should be. All this ' level playing field' stuff doesn' t mean a thing to me, knowledge is the real advantage. I don' t care if someone else is using a " better" rifle with " better" sights. What is important to me is that if muzzleloaders continue the way they are we may lose the privilage as we know it. Meaning they may shorten the season or start putting all kinds of laws in effect. I guess if it stopped where it is now then it wouldn' t be abig deal but manufacturers are not going to stop imporving these things. I say put the modernization in the centerfires and leave a little purity in muzzleloading. I' m afraid that in muzzleloading the " hunting" concept may be lost because range has hit 200 yds and will start hitting 300 then 400 yds. Its not wrong to shoot something at 400 yds but thats not a muzzleloader hunt thats a centerfire hunt at that point. If you' re shooting at game around 100yds then in my book that purity isn' t lost but I know a guy who can darn near put as tight a group at 200 with his muzzleloader as I can with my centerfire. Thats just not a muzzleloader any more, thats the only point I was trying to make.

DreaminBoutElk

Skeeter - I agree with you 100 %. If it' s legal and you can afford it then use what' s available and I ain' t one to bash anybody for that. My posts are merely stating my opinion on where I' d like to see muzzleloader hunting go. I' ve read numerous posts of yours and I don' t think there' s any question that if scopes were outlawed in your m/l hunt you' d go to hunting irons and still love it.
I' ve not seen any data to saw whether or not htese advances have made any changes in m/l success rates, but as one post mentioned, Colorado can' t seem to give out enough cow tags to control their herds. Food for thought I guess.

Archery & Muzzleloader season is right around the corner. Good luck to all you fellas!! Let a few big bulls slip through the cracks for us rifle hunters!!!!!

gleninAZ

Skeeter-I owe you an apology for using that insulting language. Never have met you so it certainly wasn' t a personal attack. The last two words say what I meant--so what. In other words if I am shooting a compound there are a dozen people here who will call me a weenie. Same as a scope on a ML or even the sabots. My point is who' s business is it if the state you are hunting in says it is OK. Have a good fall hunt.

bigbulls

As long as we are limited to black powder and the substituses there can' t be all that much improvement to a ML. Black powder and the substitutes generate very low pressures and can only move a bullet so fast.

We have a bullet on top of black powder and a primer to ignite the powder. Not much more to it. Think about it. If we took off these fancy stocks and put them into a traditional ML stock there aint much difference between them except where the primer is located and the ammount of powder that can be loaded. Still some inlines are not capable of magnum charges. The bullets may get more advanced but I' m sure that states, like Colorado has done, will limit that if need be.

Sure there is the disc and the breech lock, like the omega, but that doesn' t do anything accept keep the moisture out. You still have to load the powder, load the bullet and load a primer to ignite it all.

rather_be_huntin

You know technology. Whenever we think they have limited out they find a way to make it happen. I don' t believe for a second we' ve seen the end of the line for velocity and range improvements to muzzleloaders.

skeeter 7MM

No need for explanation or appology guys. I appreciate the gesture but I know a lot of us are very similar in our thinking with regards to hunting. I did find lots of merit in your arguements and for the most part agreed with the basis. I certainly wouldn' t want to do or use anything that may negatively reflect or hinder my ability to hunt or the season of which I do so. I certainly would be the first to trade off my scoped ML if I felt it was unfair or unjust. As mentioned I would have no problems going to iron or traditional styles if it was not legal to do so.

I love the sport of hunting and spend countless hours promoting all facits of the sport. When people ask me why I hunt it takes me hours to try and explain the reasons for doing so, way at the bottom of the list is the actual harvesting part. I guess that may be why I don' t dwell on the capabilities as much as some, as it really isn' t the be all and end all of what makes up a sucessful hunt to me. Plus i have never found a piece of equipment that made me a better hunter. While it may have helped to make things easier, I truly believe (like Rather Be) it is the experience & knowledge that pay off on a yearly basis not the equipment persay!

Red Strobes

My opinion on primitive hunting is that muzzle loaders should be side lock exposed hammers, percussion cap or flint ignition with iron sights. Bows should have one string and no wheels or cams. Hard cast ball or maxi-ball. Wooden arrows with fixed blade broadheads.

bigbulls

The only thing that would be really primitive there would be the bow and wooden arrows. But that gows right out the window when you add a modern steel and aluminum broadhead. Are there any states that allow the use of a flint broadhead? Long bow with a sinue (sp) string, wooden arrows, and a flint head would be primitive.

Lets just face reality, 99.99% of us do not hunt with anything primitive. Gun powder of any type never has been nor ever will be primitive.

That' s just my poinion on this.

Coastie

It sounds as if somebody should have defined Primitive somewhere along the way.
Some of you seem to think if you are not using a club or a rock it isn' t primitive.
Is there a common date that could be agreed upon to say that all after that is modern?
The ancient Egytians used recurve bows as did the Nez Perce here in North America, this well before the highly daunted Long Bow of English fame.
Optical sights have been around for several hundred years, maybe not used by that many people but available none the less.
The Pennsylvania and Kentucky Long Rifles were deadly accurate out to several hundred yards, these with open sights, flint lock actions and often times home made powder and cast lead balls. Guns themselves have been around not for a couple of hundred years but closer to six or seven hundred years (ever see an arquebus, a wheel lock or a blunderbuss?)
How about clothing, anybody willing to give up the Goretex and Thinsulate for Linsey-woolsey, moccasins stuffed with dry grass and lichens and a leathern jerkin for sub-zero hunting this year?
Maybe we should petition our respective Game Management folks for a pitfall and deadfall season next year and the year after we could get together for a communal hunt where we drive something off a cliff and then beat the critters that survive the fall to death with clubs and rocks.....Just a thought.

BeaverJack

Yall are cynics of they worst type. Ask yerself this, " how long has smokeless powder an' cartridges been around compared to muzzleloaders?" 100 years from now, when hunters are usin' laser beams or maybe heat seekers to kill animals, the ol' bolt action may become a " primitive" weapon. Probly way too dangerous fer the millions of hunters in the limited woods we have left, but if there' s a primitive weapons season then, I sure the hell will be tryin' for one of them rare tags. How' s that fer optimism?