txhunter58

I shoot a T/C renagade 54 caliber using open (peep) sight and pyrodex powder. Most of my hunting is in Colorado, but I also use it in Texas for whitetails (where scopes are legal) and I use the same rig (no scope). Max range for me is 100 yards. In my hands it IS a primative weapon.

I don' t think inlines are that big of an advantage as long as you don' t allow scopes. In the hands of a few perhaps, but not many.

DreaminBoutElk

A lot of good points made here. As I read through I guess the concencus is that the sights scope vs iron make the biggest difference. I have to agree somewhat, but I still think that the new magnum m/l guns that can take upwards of 150 gr of powder have to add some advantage. I shoot and old T/C Hawken percussion cap gun and 150 gr of charge would probably split that guy clean in half. I ain' t totally against the inline magnum guns with scopes, but I think that they are approaching the point where they shouldn' t be allowed during rut hunts. Could you imagine if HP rifles were allowed in all states during the rut!!!! There wouldn' t be an elk left after a few seasons!
I have to agree with Rather B and OldElk in that I think that muzzleloaders should kept as they were meant to be, round ball and cap or flint. To my notion, muzzleloader hunting is like archery in that the challenge is in getting in the extra bit closer to allow the shot. Although I am primarily a rifle hunter and my skills are plenty challenged at that level, I can see the day when I' d like to hunt elk with m/l and would like to see it kept as " primitive" as possible. I can' t see the point of prostituting the muzzleloading experience by factoring in high tech optics, propellants and projectiles. Save that for the rifle season!

Thanks for all the feedback!!

121553

Some very good points you guys got and just like hunting bow it gets technical and also a science on trying to make something better and gun hunting has also been taken to that level, its gets too be such a science and to have the best to be within the perameters of the law. But no, its not primative weapon anymore.
Even though there is no regular muzzleloading season here I still use mine dureing the general gun, I have an Italian Hawkens 45 cal percussion packed with 70 grains of black powder and home made maxiballs. My best shot was paced off at 119 yrds. It was the furthest shot I ever made with a muzzleloader on a deer and that was with open sights. I have an Kentucky rifle on the self but its just to barrel heavey to tote. Bobby

skeeter 7MM

First off I shoot a scoped (3.5x10x50) 50 cal 700 MLS (inline)[]. I run 100 Gr of Pyrodex and 240 gr XTP' s Sabots, while I can achieve on average 1-1.5" groups at 100 yards, I would never shoot at game past 150 yards. I have tested mine with various loads combos at 200 - the drop, lack of energy and consistency is to to great to warrant a shot on any live critter. So i guess I am saying that 200 or 200+ for most guys is not realistic (BTW I practice a ton, so that is not the reason for my inadequecies at 200 yards). I have rarely ran into to many frontstuffers be it scoped-inlines or sidelock-iron sights that think they are proficent to shot much past 100 yards. I have shot BP and " traditional" ML' s - my groups may have got tighter but my effective range and limit hasn' t changed much. The process has stayed the same as well, I load 1-from the front, cap and shot...clean!

Primitive weapons is not the right term for what is largerly available on the market today; look at bows!!!! I also bow hunt and my bow shoots tighter groups, faster, lighter & my effective range has increased. Yet I can still hunt those extra seasons the same as I did with my recurve or even my old slow tank of a compound, is this fair???? So should we have a different season for all the different bows?? Are you all going to run and sell your fast compound for long bows so you fit into the " Primitive" or " Traditional" meaning of the word/equipment/season?

I think the reason people justify it is the basis stay largely the same with both bow and ML. Even though the equipment is more proficient and really does not fit the intended(original) classification or discription. Rifles have advanced, but still some choose to shoot open sights and less effective or proficient calibers, does this mean we should change the seasons to make it fair on what you use?????

Where do we draw the line????

What is the real issue here? Are we mad b/c those guys who went and forked out the cash for a scoped inline are honing in our animals? Jealous??? News flash guys, you can do the same!!! I really don' t see how yesterday weapons or equipment can be compared to most anything available today! It is a choice and if you choose to not buy something b/c you don' t think it is fair...that is your choice and should not be a subject of debate on does it fit the intended class!!!!

I guess I see it as if it is legal and you want to use a certain type of weapon than by all means do so. I certainly don' t think it does any good for me to bash your choice of legal weapons, just b/c I don' t have one!!! The field can never be leveled, inevitably we strive for more and manufacturer' s produce. If the law makers agree it fits into a classifaction and justified to be used in that season...fine by me. It than becomes a personal choice on what I would to do and not B*tch and Whine session on is it fair or not! Supply and demand drives the industry(like all others) and obviously many feel that newer technology is a benefit not a deterant. I bet somehwere in your equipment closet you use and have something that is miles ahead of yesterdays equipment...what about rangefinders, GPS, FRS, atv' s, calls...the list goes on. Advances are part of life and this sport, we drive the manufacturer to produce more proficent goods to help us be successful in the field (even though our old stuff worked before!!).

Just where do we draw the line and decide what is right/fair or appropriate...can' t have it both ways!

BTW no ML season for Moose or Elk in these parts, just deer and antelope.

I have had people tell me it is not fair to have an extended archery season(harvest selection) for Elk and Moose and main was reason bows today are easier and better than the old style ones that were intended to take advantage of the lengthy season..hardly fair. " My answer to them is if it is so easy and you want a piece of the pie, then buy yourself a bow and get out their to take advantage! I am certainly not stopping you." Pretty simple the choice is theirs to make, not mine. If the laws were to change and say no scope or inlines, I would just go back to my sidelock..no big whoop, but as they stand I am entilted to use what I have and do so with no reservations!

Good Hunting!!!

David/Mo

I fully agree that the inlines have gotten completely away from what the original intent of the muzzleloading season was. The ones to blame are the manufacurers namely Tony Knight (the " Pioneer in inline muzzleloading" ), they saw a market for- look and feel like hi-po rifles.
What should be done? I think Colorado is on the right track. Maybe include exposed hammer, and percussion cap. Ban shotgun primers.
Perhaps the exposed hammer is being precieved by the manufacturers of inlines as a new rule coming (Encore, Omega, and other manufacturers are coming out with them.
What do I shoot a Percussion Hawken made by myself in .58. Will shoot roundballs (290gr.) accurately with up to 160gr. 2F at 2000fps. But my hunting load will be 140gr. 1800fps.
I shoot a lot at ranges up to 200yd. If I know the range I would feel very comfortable shooting an elk up to 150yd. Checking ballistic tables this 58 hits as hard a 150yd. as my 54 hit at 75yd.
my opinion for what its worth
David/Mo

gleninAZ

I admit to having a Knight and killing a 6x6 elk at 110 yards with it. Iron sights but definitely not like shooting a Hawken. Same argument has raged for years from longbow vs recurve vs compound hunters. I am mainly a bowhunter and have a fast compound but my range is limited to 40 yards. Based on the recent flaming going on about the guy with the new 500 yard rifle shot tv show I think it boils down to yardage. Bowseason is for shots 50 yards or less. Muzzleloader season is for 150 yards and rifle is for 1000 yards. Agree that scopes are pushing the limit on ML. Bottom line is that each style of hunting is harder than the next. If a guy wants to take advantage of a muzzleloader season by using a scope and all the other tricks then he is a ***** and other than that so what.

rather_be_huntin

This is a great discussion and I wanted to weigh in again after reading some posts. In my opinion its not so much the way of loading or firing that rubs me the wrong way as much as its the range of these new muzzleloaders. People have brought up the comparison with the compound bow but with a bow you still have to really " hunt" the animal. You have a little more range, what 20 yds maybe, and you can hold the draw longer but you still have to " hunt" that animal.

You start throwing a scope on these things and with bullet technology you are extending range by 100 yds or more!!! That changes your hunt strategy drastically. A 100 yds is a long ways when you' re talking about getting close. Screw having a level playing field. I don' t care what latest gadget Joe Smo has on the next ridge, I would just like to see hunting stay pure in that you still need to " hunt" the animal. Whats next, heat seeking bullets?

Now I' m going to stir the pot a little but when I take out my centerfire I' m after meat. I want to fill the freezer and I have no reservations about a 350yd shot. I usually hunt cows and does with my centerfire. When I' m out with a bow or muzzleloader I' m out for the challenge. I' m not whining about the next guy having an advantage, knowledge the biggest advantage, I' m more concerned with preserving the way people used to hunt with the ' primitive' weapons. Why, because when that changes then eventually it all changes. The gadgets aren' t so bad, I hope that we just can preserve the " hunting" aspect of the sport. The getting close is the part I' m reffering to.

With that being said I don' t think they' re wrong or should be illegal, I' d just like to see people preserve the older ways.

zacko

One thing missing in this thread is the effectiveness of any of these " primitive" weapons at taking more game. Do people really kill more animals just because they have an in-line vs. a sidelock? For the last 2 years in Colorado the DOW has released more and more cow tags because the hunters haven' t been successful in bringing the herds down to a level that they feel is manageable. In fact there are many units where you can now kill more than one elk.
I don' t believe it is because they are stomping into the woods with inferior weapons, it is because we are largely stomping in with inferior skills.
I know I have lost some edge in the last several years because I just don' t shoot as much.
I think DOW calls what we are talking about " Method of Take" . And as long as you are flinging a stick, or loading from the front, and need to be closer than 100 yards to an animal that can smell, hear and sometimes see better than we can, I call that pretty darn primitive.

charlie brown

I shoot a CVA Bobcat .50 percussion style with a synthetic stock and a set of aftermarket CVA Illuminator sights on it. I bought the synthetic stock for weight reasons, and it seemed to balance better with me than wood did. I put the sights on because I had a hard time with the other sights. Even when I bought it, I still did not consider it a " primitive weapon." It is a MUZZLELOADER, I don' t even consider 80lb draw weight compound bows primitive. Primitive is sticks and stones if you ask me.

In Nevada you can' t have a scope on a muzzleloader during " Muzzleloader only" season. Fine with me, I don' t know of anybody that can print tight groups past 100 yds with an inline with open sights any way, so the playing field is pretty level versus someone with a flintlock. I can print 2" groups at 65 yds with my ML, with round balls, just got it precisely sighted in, and when I can shoot again, will start working with other bullets. I have not hunted with it yet. A max shot for me might be, say, 75 yds. Now during the " Any Legal Weapon" season scopes can be had on ML. Thats fine, it levels the playing field a little more versus centerfire rifle.

To end this I am saying that laws should be directed toward making everything as equal as possibe for everybody. I am not against scopes on ML' s, but not during seasons when people are walking around with flintlocks and other people are shooting smokeless inlines with scopes and can knock a fly off a donkey' s a$$ at 250 yds. If someone chooses to hunt with a ML during rifle season, more power to them. One final thought, these so called " primitive weapons" hunts should be labled to more describe the weapon to be used, not just a generality. I don' t have any problems with people who use weapons that are legal, that' s what the law is there for, this is just how I feel.

skeeter 7MM

Glen very nice your infering I am a " *****" to quote your words, b/c I choose to use a scoped ML and you don' t... " get off the pot man it is ruining your brain!!!!" It is completely legal for me to use a scoped inline, it is my choice and I don' t see how it effects anything you do...calling me a ***** thats productive!!!! Better look in the mirror some before you open your trap!!!! Killed a 6x6 at 110 but since you used iron sites you the man & it ain' t the same!!! Get flippin' real!!!! Who are you kidding the scope might make it easier to see a target and some my argue it makes them more accurate. The knightyou use has the same capability as my 700MLS(they are both mag. inlines). I know of 2 guys who use iron sights due to glasses vs scope and they hang right with me and others with scoped guns in accuracy at the range. They also shoot deer at 200-250 with irons(CF' s) so does that make them a better hunter than me with my scoped gun..nope. If I had to use irons I would become proficent at shooting it at my disered distance, it may change my limits some what but I certainly wouldn' t be opposed to it or call those who can use a scope a " *****" . Also 110 yards is not that far from my max with my ***** setup of 150. Again i can' t find any merit in arguement that makes no sense, sorry but you said you use an inline but the difference between you and me is scope vs iron, for I am a ***** and you are not......OKAY[:' (]

Rather be, I quite rather enjoy reading your comments, except in this case I don' t agree. You infer that my choice of legal gear makes me not hunt my animals as much as say some one who uses a more traditional set up. Pretty broad statement in my mind, considering you can' t speak for everybody and their methods or efforts with regards to hunting. In the case of a bow my effective range has doubled with the recent advancements in archery equipment from my traditonal start to the sport. However I haven' t adapted my hunting style to my improved limits, My bow is more consistant, groups tighter at all ranges and has given me more confiodence. All this has resulted in more success in the field. I hunt hard regardless of the season, I like to try and setup a for sure thing, not an outside limit. I also prefer to get right in on my game, so I like to hunt them on their level, in their domain and just maybe I connect. I could say treestands offer an unfair advantage as they are largely used now and have provided many guys to up their success rate with bows, my reason for saying so are b/c I hunt on the ground and find it personally more challenging to do so...BUT I DON' T.

My point is hunting is personal, why dwell on what the next guy is doing. Just b/c it is different than you, does not make it unfair, wrong, etc. If you are jealous or feel it is that much of an advantage then who is stopping you from doing the same. I really don' t believe equipment makes you a successful hunter, it hasn' t hurt but my success rate have not dramtically increased with a new weapon just due to extended range or what have you. They have only made at times my confidence level rise. Confidence is the key underlying characteristic that seperates the good from the great in a personas ability. I have seen unconfident people with the best money can buy, however it does not make them a better hunter. My CF will kill a deer and I can shoot it very accurately to 350 yards, yet I still set up for a close encounter at under 100 yard shots in most cases. Why I like the challenge, the hunt, feeling of being right in their domain and again just maybe connecting. To me it is the ulitmate PERSONAL reward and after all that is why I am doing it!

Guys as a group of hunters we do more to distruct than to build, jumping on others methods that is within the legal guidlines has no positive outcomes for our sport. We need to support our fellow hunters, while I agree and like opinions they are just that " PERSONAL" choices, thoughts or experiences! At the end of the day most of us are all after the same thing and share the same feelings about the sport we love so dear. To get your nose out of joint b/c my area allows scopes on my inline and your does not seems a little silly to me and counter productive. Again what does it really do to your hunting activity. If the choice is their to be made, it becomes personal and validation for that choice is welcomed. However it does not entitle you to run down, analyze, pass judgement or name call those who choose differently.

Have a good, safe and successful season to all[8D]