Wolves and elk
04-08-2010, 07:23 PM
#41
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cedar Valley Utah
Posts: 977
ratherbehuntin...good points
BUT there is no such thing as a hunter that poaches ...they are POACHERS plain and simple...along with folks that vandilize stuff, they are not hunter but VANDALS
Don't be puttin those scumm suckers in the same catagory as hunters!!!! just as real hunters don't go off roading and tear up the country side!!! call them whatever ya want but don't call them hunters!!!!
BUT there is no such thing as a hunter that poaches ...they are POACHERS plain and simple...along with folks that vandilize stuff, they are not hunter but VANDALS
Don't be puttin those scumm suckers in the same catagory as hunters!!!! just as real hunters don't go off roading and tear up the country side!!! call them whatever ya want but don't call them hunters!!!!
04-08-2010, 07:43 PM
#42
Fork Horn
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kittitas, Wa.
Posts: 462
04-09-2010, 05:36 AM
#43
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: beautiful western montana
Posts: 193
An interesting perspective for sure but here is another. Maybe stop viewing the return of the wolf as a wildlife 9-11 and instead look at the situation as an opportunity to return hunting and wildlife management back to a simpler time.
Yes the elk will need to reach back into their collective memories in order to co-exist with wolves, but like riding a bike I believe they are capable of it. As intelligent and extremely well equiped humams we should be at least willing to try the same.
Is winter feeding of thousands of elk in Wyoming really doing hunters or elk any good? Do you really belive Spider Bull is a real elk? Is it just a coinsidence that in a the last century mother nature managed to create only 2 or 3 elk that could score better than 400 B and C points and now 400-450 bulls are behind every other tree? Because Spider never faced a 4 legged predater and only very controlled 2 legged ones we think he is somehow the "best" elk ever? Spider is and was just a coddled cow and if he lived in the real elk world would have never lived to become the frankenelk he was. Do we really want to continue with high fenceing and feed supplements in our wildlife "management" tool box. I don't.
Just maybe we can look at what our sport has become and turn a page back. Maybe we can look at elk as more than just another commodoty sold to the highest bidder and just maybe we can get another generation interested in the tradition of hunting. It has become little more than another game that needs to be made more "extreme" to be popular. Biggest horns or longest range killing being examples.
My last elk hunt I managed to let my 4 year old daughter hear her first wolves howling outside the tent. Of course all the elk we were watching left for the next mountain but I'm sure she didn't care and I didn't mind either. They would be back.
For all the reasons it is getting harder and harder to hunt, wolves are not one of them. Doesn't even come close to what the outfitting lobby is doing both in tieing up access to land and tags. But that is another issue.
Yes the elk will need to reach back into their collective memories in order to co-exist with wolves, but like riding a bike I believe they are capable of it. As intelligent and extremely well equiped humams we should be at least willing to try the same.
Is winter feeding of thousands of elk in Wyoming really doing hunters or elk any good? Do you really belive Spider Bull is a real elk? Is it just a coinsidence that in a the last century mother nature managed to create only 2 or 3 elk that could score better than 400 B and C points and now 400-450 bulls are behind every other tree? Because Spider never faced a 4 legged predater and only very controlled 2 legged ones we think he is somehow the "best" elk ever? Spider is and was just a coddled cow and if he lived in the real elk world would have never lived to become the frankenelk he was. Do we really want to continue with high fenceing and feed supplements in our wildlife "management" tool box. I don't.
Just maybe we can look at what our sport has become and turn a page back. Maybe we can look at elk as more than just another commodoty sold to the highest bidder and just maybe we can get another generation interested in the tradition of hunting. It has become little more than another game that needs to be made more "extreme" to be popular. Biggest horns or longest range killing being examples.
My last elk hunt I managed to let my 4 year old daughter hear her first wolves howling outside the tent. Of course all the elk we were watching left for the next mountain but I'm sure she didn't care and I didn't mind either. They would be back.
For all the reasons it is getting harder and harder to hunt, wolves are not one of them. Doesn't even come close to what the outfitting lobby is doing both in tieing up access to land and tags. But that is another issue.
04-09-2010, 06:38 AM
#44
Fork Horn
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kittitas, Wa.
Posts: 462
YEP it's the green whackos fault!!!! I guess we need to just go out and kill off all the none native/introduced species?? is that what U are sayin here muley70??? And we need to stop all reintroduction programs also, is this right???
Last edited by finnbear; 04-09-2010 at 06:42 AM.
04-09-2010, 08:07 AM
#46
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: beautiful western montana
Posts: 193
Finnbear, you simply do not understand the dynamics of wolf reintroduction, you don't get it, you never have. Once we go from ecosystem biology to political biology we are doomed. The wolf is a perfect example of "political biology". You yourself have made claims that "the wolf was here first". So were the indians, are you going to leave and go back to Europe? Why are you still here? What part of unsustainable do you not get? What part of ecosystem dynamics do you not get? This year Montana FWP eliminated all cow hunting for youth, archery, and handicap hunters do to low population numbers in area 250 due to wolf predation on elk herds. Why? The reason is the lack of understanding biological principles, or worse, ignoring them to appease a certain element of society. Why do we not re-introduce wolves to the greater Chicago area, where they once roamed?
04-09-2010, 09:51 AM
#47
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cedar Valley Utah
Posts: 977
It's one thing to re-introduce an animal that makes the ecosystem better with data from relevant studies to back that up. It's something else completely to re-introduce something based on emotion and completely lacking a RELEVANT study. They are not the same thing and can only be compared through complete and udder blinding ignorance!
I don't care about studies from Canada or Alaska. Many studies should have been conducted HERE! A study that took into consideration the dwindling winter habitat and the lack of ability of game to escape since they have to live in deeper snow than their ancestors due to humans building in low lying areas.
Did you know that a wolf with it's large paws and relatively low body weight can usually run on top of the ice crusted snow and the elk almost always break through and can hardly run at all making them an easy meal?
Last edited by rather_be_huntin; 04-09-2010 at 09:59 AM.
04-09-2010, 10:48 AM
#49
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: beautiful western montana
Posts: 193
I encourage all to go to www.RMEF.org and read the letter the RMEF released yesterday to the anti-hunting group Defenders of Wildlife regarding the wolf issue. It will certainly open your eyes. If nothing else, it will let you know who you are in bed with when you support wolf reintroduction, namely, the antis.