Is there a trend here?
10-07-2009, 05:55 AM
#31
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 171
RBH I agree with you 100%...just look at some of the signatures and avatrs of just this site...some guys/gals want to think they are the part of elite team because they list a half dozen name brands they own under their name. as if to say..." Hey look at me I use all this stuff so I m,ust be a great hunter too..."
I'll let you in on a little secret : I made my living for many years in Alaska as a big game guide/outfitter, even held the rank of A1 Big game guide, I wore wool clothes just like my father had in his outfitting days, leather boots just like dad and grandpa did in their outfitting days of that dated back to the 1930's, toted a well worn iron sighted mdl 54 winchester 30-06 that probably killed more brown bears and sheep and moose than any 338WM carried by a client ever did. No marketing scheme ever kept me warm or safe in a spike camp!
I'll let you in on a little secret : I made my living for many years in Alaska as a big game guide/outfitter, even held the rank of A1 Big game guide, I wore wool clothes just like my father had in his outfitting days, leather boots just like dad and grandpa did in their outfitting days of that dated back to the 1930's, toted a well worn iron sighted mdl 54 winchester 30-06 that probably killed more brown bears and sheep and moose than any 338WM carried by a client ever did. No marketing scheme ever kept me warm or safe in a spike camp!
10-09-2009, 09:19 PM
#32
Fork Horn
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 221
I don't use outfitters because I am financially challenged.
I would never use them if I were younger than I am now being in my 60's.
I would spend more time scouting than actual hunting regardless of where I would hunt, no matter the species.I would actually use an outfitter to show me the ropes on a species I have never hunted before.
My 2 cents....
I would never use them if I were younger than I am now being in my 60's.
I would spend more time scouting than actual hunting regardless of where I would hunt, no matter the species.I would actually use an outfitter to show me the ropes on a species I have never hunted before.
My 2 cents....
10-10-2009, 05:12 AM
#33
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: WY
Posts: 2,056
This is an enormously contentious issue anymore. There are those of us geographically fortunate to live near the hunting, and there are those who are not. As well, there are different philosophies as to why we hunt - some of us hunt for the sheer experience of it, some of us hunt to feed the family, and some of us hunt to fill our "trophy room."
Consider the "why" of your own desire to hunt with an outfitter. If you're doing it for the "exclusive access", then depending on who you are, there may always be a customer "more exclusive" than you are. Maybe he/she isn't a celebrity, but maybe they HAVE been a long-time client and maybe even a "friend" of the outfitter. Is that wrong?
Tips are HUGE for your outfitter's guides. For some, that's about the only compensation they'll get. How much of your budget are you willing to allocate on a hunt just to show your appreciation to the guys who wrangle your horse, run your camp, the kid trying to find you the game. You'll pay 15-20 percent at the restaurant. Will you do the same for your outfitter? Will you tip even more if you have a great experience? I have a friend who takes his entire vacation every year to guide in the wilderness areas around Yellowstone. You wonder what kind of "guide" you'll draw? Well, I guarantee you the "guides" wonder what kind of "client" they'll draw too. I've heard him tell too many stories about the overweight smoker who complained every step his horse took over 16 miles and who never bothered sighting his fancy rifle in (hence, missed his trophy shot) and then didn't tip him.
But let's go back to what seem are the primary complaints about "outfitters". "The TV crew got the good ranch". "The TV crew got the best guide". Is your beef with the outfitter? Or is it with the TV crew? I've also noticed all the "lookee mee, I use the same gear the big guys do" tags at the end of posts here. How many of you are sitting in front of the boob tube this morning watching advertisi.... I mean, watching "hunting shows"? (I'm watching toonies with a 3 YO - ha, ha).
Does anyone besides me wonder just how much T/C and Nikon spend on advertising each year?
Let's call a spade a spade here. The TV crew wouldn't be in the woods at ALL if they weren't trying to sell us stuff that we never needed before?! Same goes for magazine writers. These people don't make their living from our cable TV or magazine subscriptions, they make their living selling us stuff for their advertisers! Truth be known, if most of those tards had to hunt public land like many of the rest of us do every year, they wouldn't be bringing home the big trophies, they may not bag anything at all.
And... If you watch those shows and are buying the stuff they're convincing you that you must have to be like <insert name here> who always gets the big trophies, then YOU may very well be part of the problem with schmuck outfitters?
And don't think it's any easier on those of us who live out here. I can't remember the last time I hunted opening day because I have to work. I can't remember the last time I actually SCOUTED a hunting area, and because public lands aren't "exclusive access", I can bet that every year I'm going to have to walk some new ground because someone beat me to the areas I know already. There are lots of years that I come home empty, too. We find ourselves "competing" for access with the outfitters and their paying clients. MIght you be one of them? (No, I know you're not - most of the outfitters locally hunt private ranches anyway).
Consider the "why" of your own desire to hunt with an outfitter. If you're doing it for the "exclusive access", then depending on who you are, there may always be a customer "more exclusive" than you are. Maybe he/she isn't a celebrity, but maybe they HAVE been a long-time client and maybe even a "friend" of the outfitter. Is that wrong?
Tips are HUGE for your outfitter's guides. For some, that's about the only compensation they'll get. How much of your budget are you willing to allocate on a hunt just to show your appreciation to the guys who wrangle your horse, run your camp, the kid trying to find you the game. You'll pay 15-20 percent at the restaurant. Will you do the same for your outfitter? Will you tip even more if you have a great experience? I have a friend who takes his entire vacation every year to guide in the wilderness areas around Yellowstone. You wonder what kind of "guide" you'll draw? Well, I guarantee you the "guides" wonder what kind of "client" they'll draw too. I've heard him tell too many stories about the overweight smoker who complained every step his horse took over 16 miles and who never bothered sighting his fancy rifle in (hence, missed his trophy shot) and then didn't tip him.
But let's go back to what seem are the primary complaints about "outfitters". "The TV crew got the good ranch". "The TV crew got the best guide". Is your beef with the outfitter? Or is it with the TV crew? I've also noticed all the "lookee mee, I use the same gear the big guys do" tags at the end of posts here. How many of you are sitting in front of the boob tube this morning watching advertisi.... I mean, watching "hunting shows"? (I'm watching toonies with a 3 YO - ha, ha).
Does anyone besides me wonder just how much T/C and Nikon spend on advertising each year?
Let's call a spade a spade here. The TV crew wouldn't be in the woods at ALL if they weren't trying to sell us stuff that we never needed before?! Same goes for magazine writers. These people don't make their living from our cable TV or magazine subscriptions, they make their living selling us stuff for their advertisers! Truth be known, if most of those tards had to hunt public land like many of the rest of us do every year, they wouldn't be bringing home the big trophies, they may not bag anything at all.
And... If you watch those shows and are buying the stuff they're convincing you that you must have to be like <insert name here> who always gets the big trophies, then YOU may very well be part of the problem with schmuck outfitters?
And don't think it's any easier on those of us who live out here. I can't remember the last time I hunted opening day because I have to work. I can't remember the last time I actually SCOUTED a hunting area, and because public lands aren't "exclusive access", I can bet that every year I'm going to have to walk some new ground because someone beat me to the areas I know already. There are lots of years that I come home empty, too. We find ourselves "competing" for access with the outfitters and their paying clients. MIght you be one of them? (No, I know you're not - most of the outfitters locally hunt private ranches anyway).
10-14-2009, 04:25 AM
#34
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 171
Some of the above post was excellent a bit of it though seems to have strayed from the original intent of the thread.
1. everyone seems to agree the TV crews are there with the intent of promoting their product which is fine with me, it is how business is done. But the mere fact they are there doesn't excuse the outfitter from giving other clients sub par trips.
2. trust me I've seen the good and bad from both sides of the outfitter/client issues. While guides do most certainly deal with troblesome clients they are aware of this possibility going into the season an if they aren't they have selected the wrong business to partake in.
3. Yes it is the norm for guides to work for low base wages and expect tips of 15% or better for quality service...but like all service employees they are expected to provide quality service and except any tip for what it is...a goodwill gesture from client to guide,,not wages.
4. Most every outfitter I've personally known (I've been in the business and around it for 40+ years) employs his guides full time and does not rely on temporary vacation workers...they like I have learned to keep the good ones on staff year-round so as to be assured of having them next season. "Vacationeers" as they are known to outfitters are truly a dime a dozen an except for the rare ones usually are not dedicated to the industry or repeat clients unless they tipped well. It takes a special type of individual to be a full time guide with yearly salaries low little or no medical beneifts,etc. ...few if any family men can afford to do so...myself included!
1. everyone seems to agree the TV crews are there with the intent of promoting their product which is fine with me, it is how business is done. But the mere fact they are there doesn't excuse the outfitter from giving other clients sub par trips.
2. trust me I've seen the good and bad from both sides of the outfitter/client issues. While guides do most certainly deal with troblesome clients they are aware of this possibility going into the season an if they aren't they have selected the wrong business to partake in.
3. Yes it is the norm for guides to work for low base wages and expect tips of 15% or better for quality service...but like all service employees they are expected to provide quality service and except any tip for what it is...a goodwill gesture from client to guide,,not wages.
4. Most every outfitter I've personally known (I've been in the business and around it for 40+ years) employs his guides full time and does not rely on temporary vacation workers...they like I have learned to keep the good ones on staff year-round so as to be assured of having them next season. "Vacationeers" as they are known to outfitters are truly a dime a dozen an except for the rare ones usually are not dedicated to the industry or repeat clients unless they tipped well. It takes a special type of individual to be a full time guide with yearly salaries low little or no medical beneifts,etc. ...few if any family men can afford to do so...myself included!
10-14-2009, 07:20 AM
#35
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 211
Some of the above post was excellent a bit of it though seems to have strayed from the original intent of the thread.
1. everyone seems to agree the TV crews are there with the intent of promoting their product which is fine with me, it is how business is done. But the mere fact they are there doesn't excuse the outfitter from giving other clients sub par trips.
2. trust me I've seen the good and bad from both sides of the outfitter/client issues. While guides do most certainly deal with troblesome clients they are aware of this possibility going into the season an if they aren't they have selected the wrong business to partake in.
3. Yes it is the norm for guides to work for low base wages and expect tips of 15% or better for quality service...but like all service employees they are expected to provide quality service and except any tip for what it is...a goodwill gesture from client to guide,,not wages.
4. Most every outfitter I've personally known (I've been in the business and around it for 40+ years) employs his guides full time and does not rely on temporary vacation workers...they like I have learned to keep the good ones on staff year-round so as to be assured of having them next season. "Vacationeers" as they are known to outfitters are truly a dime a dozen an except for the rare ones usually are not dedicated to the industry or repeat clients unless they tipped well. It takes a special type of individual to be a full time guide with yearly salaries low little or no medical beneifts,etc. ...few if any family men can afford to do so...myself included!
1. everyone seems to agree the TV crews are there with the intent of promoting their product which is fine with me, it is how business is done. But the mere fact they are there doesn't excuse the outfitter from giving other clients sub par trips.
2. trust me I've seen the good and bad from both sides of the outfitter/client issues. While guides do most certainly deal with troblesome clients they are aware of this possibility going into the season an if they aren't they have selected the wrong business to partake in.
3. Yes it is the norm for guides to work for low base wages and expect tips of 15% or better for quality service...but like all service employees they are expected to provide quality service and except any tip for what it is...a goodwill gesture from client to guide,,not wages.
4. Most every outfitter I've personally known (I've been in the business and around it for 40+ years) employs his guides full time and does not rely on temporary vacation workers...they like I have learned to keep the good ones on staff year-round so as to be assured of having them next season. "Vacationeers" as they are known to outfitters are truly a dime a dozen an except for the rare ones usually are not dedicated to the industry or repeat clients unless they tipped well. It takes a special type of individual to be a full time guide with yearly salaries low little or no medical beneifts,etc. ...few if any family men can afford to do so...myself included!
Where an outfitter places his clients is really up to the outfitter. All outfitters I have worked for have special areas they take repeat clients. They are taking care of the hunters that do repeat business with them, just as I do with my construction company, just as any company does. I can tell you as sure as I am sitting here, when you get back to camp and you and your hunter got into elk, and the other guide and his hunter didn't, that hunter immediatly begins to question the area he is in. I have seen this a half dozen times with always the same result.
The outfitter I am currently working for is considering off limits areas for bow/rifle in his areas, in order to preserve some hunts for both bow and rifle hunters. Other outfitters i have worked for have done a "comp" hunt with clients. A week of hunting on the outfitters dime at no charge to the hunters. These are for long time repeat clients who have always been a pleasure to hunt with and tipped the guides well etc. Is that fair? The outfitter thinks so and its his business.
10-14-2009, 07:31 AM
#36
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 211
This is an enormously contentious issue anymore. There are those of us geographically fortunate to live near the hunting, and there are those who are not. As well, there are different philosophies as to why we hunt - some of us hunt for the sheer experience of it, some of us hunt to feed the family, and some of us hunt to fill our "trophy room."
Consider the "why" of your own desire to hunt with an outfitter. If you're doing it for the "exclusive access", then depending on who you are, there may always be a customer "more exclusive" than you are. Maybe he/she isn't a celebrity, but maybe they HAVE been a long-time client and maybe even a "friend" of the outfitter. Is that wrong?
Tips are HUGE for your outfitter's guides. For some, that's about the only compensation they'll get. How much of your budget are you willing to allocate on a hunt just to show your appreciation to the guys who wrangle your horse, run your camp, the kid trying to find you the game. You'll pay 15-20 percent at the restaurant. Will you do the same for your outfitter? Will you tip even more if you have a great experience? I have a friend who takes his entire vacation every year to guide in the wilderness areas around Yellowstone. You wonder what kind of "guide" you'll draw? Well, I guarantee you the "guides" wonder what kind of "client" they'll draw too. I've heard him tell too many stories about the overweight smoker who complained every step his horse took over 16 miles and who never bothered sighting his fancy rifle in (hence, missed his trophy shot) and then didn't tip him.
But let's go back to what seem are the primary complaints about "outfitters". "The TV crew got the good ranch". "The TV crew got the best guide". Is your beef with the outfitter? Or is it with the TV crew? I've also noticed all the "lookee mee, I use the same gear the big guys do" tags at the end of posts here. How many of you are sitting in front of the boob tube this morning watching advertisi.... I mean, watching "hunting shows"? (I'm watching toonies with a 3 YO - ha, ha).
Does anyone besides me wonder just how much T/C and Nikon spend on advertising each year?
Let's call a spade a spade here. The TV crew wouldn't be in the woods at ALL if they weren't trying to sell us stuff that we never needed before?! Same goes for magazine writers. These people don't make their living from our cable TV or magazine subscriptions, they make their living selling us stuff for their advertisers! Truth be known, if most of those tards had to hunt public land like many of the rest of us do every year, they wouldn't be bringing home the big trophies, they may not bag anything at all.
And... If you watch those shows and are buying the stuff they're convincing you that you must have to be like <insert name here> who always gets the big trophies, then YOU may very well be part of the problem with schmuck outfitters?
And don't think it's any easier on those of us who live out here. I can't remember the last time I hunted opening day because I have to work. I can't remember the last time I actually SCOUTED a hunting area, and because public lands aren't "exclusive access", I can bet that every year I'm going to have to walk some new ground because someone beat me to the areas I know already. There are lots of years that I come home empty, too. We find ourselves "competing" for access with the outfitters and their paying clients. MIght you be one of them? (No, I know you're not - most of the outfitters locally hunt private ranches anyway).
Consider the "why" of your own desire to hunt with an outfitter. If you're doing it for the "exclusive access", then depending on who you are, there may always be a customer "more exclusive" than you are. Maybe he/she isn't a celebrity, but maybe they HAVE been a long-time client and maybe even a "friend" of the outfitter. Is that wrong?
Tips are HUGE for your outfitter's guides. For some, that's about the only compensation they'll get. How much of your budget are you willing to allocate on a hunt just to show your appreciation to the guys who wrangle your horse, run your camp, the kid trying to find you the game. You'll pay 15-20 percent at the restaurant. Will you do the same for your outfitter? Will you tip even more if you have a great experience? I have a friend who takes his entire vacation every year to guide in the wilderness areas around Yellowstone. You wonder what kind of "guide" you'll draw? Well, I guarantee you the "guides" wonder what kind of "client" they'll draw too. I've heard him tell too many stories about the overweight smoker who complained every step his horse took over 16 miles and who never bothered sighting his fancy rifle in (hence, missed his trophy shot) and then didn't tip him.
But let's go back to what seem are the primary complaints about "outfitters". "The TV crew got the good ranch". "The TV crew got the best guide". Is your beef with the outfitter? Or is it with the TV crew? I've also noticed all the "lookee mee, I use the same gear the big guys do" tags at the end of posts here. How many of you are sitting in front of the boob tube this morning watching advertisi.... I mean, watching "hunting shows"? (I'm watching toonies with a 3 YO - ha, ha).
Does anyone besides me wonder just how much T/C and Nikon spend on advertising each year?
Let's call a spade a spade here. The TV crew wouldn't be in the woods at ALL if they weren't trying to sell us stuff that we never needed before?! Same goes for magazine writers. These people don't make their living from our cable TV or magazine subscriptions, they make their living selling us stuff for their advertisers! Truth be known, if most of those tards had to hunt public land like many of the rest of us do every year, they wouldn't be bringing home the big trophies, they may not bag anything at all.
And... If you watch those shows and are buying the stuff they're convincing you that you must have to be like <insert name here> who always gets the big trophies, then YOU may very well be part of the problem with schmuck outfitters?
And don't think it's any easier on those of us who live out here. I can't remember the last time I hunted opening day because I have to work. I can't remember the last time I actually SCOUTED a hunting area, and because public lands aren't "exclusive access", I can bet that every year I'm going to have to walk some new ground because someone beat me to the areas I know already. There are lots of years that I come home empty, too. We find ourselves "competing" for access with the outfitters and their paying clients. MIght you be one of them? (No, I know you're not - most of the outfitters locally hunt private ranches anyway).
10-14-2009, 03:16 PM
#37
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 171
Muley669, I have no reason to think you aren't dedicated to guiding when you get a call from an outfitter or to doubt your word that those outfitters you know first hand opt to use part time guides. But I can assure you the outfitters I know including my grandfather, father and two brothers as well as myself used year round employment to keep good help. The outfitters I'm on first name basis with are mostly from the Yukon, BC, and Alaska with a few in Wyo. and Montana, hunt sheep, grizzly, moose, goat, 'bou, etc. there is a huge difference in hunting them in remote back country and doing an antelope or muley truck trip thru the back fourty in rolling grasslands...not to say those hunts aren't great hunts too but one surely must admit it takes a bit more skill to scale a cliff with an overweight 60 year old huffing and puffing up behind you for a couple miles,then decide if the ram you are looking at is legal or not, "THEN" getting fatso into shooting range, etc, etc than it does to spot a antelope from a truck window and make a couple hundred yard stalk so fatso can blow it away.
You don't find good sheep guides working construction jobs 9 months a year willing to do that.
You don't find good sheep guides working construction jobs 9 months a year willing to do that.
10-14-2009, 03:28 PM
#38
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 211
Muley669, I have no reason to think you aren't dedicated to guiding when you get a call from an outfitter or to doubt your word that those outfitters you know first hand opt to use part time guides. But I can assure you the outfitters I know including my grandfather, father and two brothers as well as myself used year round employment to keep good help. The outfitters I'm on first name basis with are mostly from the Yukon, BC, and Alaska with a few in Wyo. and Montana, hunt sheep, grizzly, moose, goat, 'bou, etc. there is a huge difference in hunting them in remote back country and doing an antelope or muley truck trip thru the back fourty in rolling grasslands...not to say those hunts aren't great hunts too but one surely must admit it takes a bit more skill to scale a cliff with an overweight 60 year old huffing and puffing up behind you for a couple miles,then decide if the ram you are looking at is legal or not, "THEN" getting fatso into shooting range, etc, etc than it does to spot a antelope from a truck window and make a couple hundred yard stalk so fatso can blow it away.
You don't find good sheep guides working construction jobs 9 months a year willing to do that.
You don't find good sheep guides working construction jobs 9 months a year willing to do that.
