What do you shoot: poll kinda?
12-30-2002, 08:19 PM
#21
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Denver CO USA
Posts: 20
RE: What do you shoot: poll kinda?
I carry the rifle that works for the biggest game I might be after at the time. When elk is on the plan, its a 338 win... and I usually hunt deer along with the elk, so that 338 works there too... now if I am in KS for whitetail, its the 30-06, same for antelope.
For coyote, .243.... hell on the pelt, but it reaches out.
For coyote, .243.... hell on the pelt, but it reaches out.
12-31-2002, 02:23 PM
#23
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rancho Murieta CA USA
Posts: 160
RE: What do you shoot: poll kinda?
My wife asks me why would I possibly need more than 1 gun. I can only hunt with one at a time, Right?
My Reply; Why do you need more than one pair of shoes...You can only wear one pair at at time, Right?
Some women just don't understand!!!
My Reply; Why do you need more than one pair of shoes...You can only wear one pair at at time, Right?
Some women just don't understand!!!
01-01-2003, 09:43 AM
#24
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Gypsum KS USA
Posts: 1,289
RE: What do you shoot: poll kinda?
Elkampmaster, In fact, I'm planning on purchasing a CZ in .416 RIgby soon, I've been looking for a new one recently, but hate that all american makers want more than a grand for their big bores, and I'm leary about buying a savage in big bore ($502 for a .375H&H), I've found a couple CZ's at the closest cabela's who naturally marked them up to $691. The only thing that I feel that the CZ lacks that the Winchester has is the weight, the CZ feels like a fat deer rifle, not a big bore...but it's never bothered me before so why not right? I love the express rangefinding sights on the CZ's too, even if they don't work as well as I'd like, it's a good idea in my book.
I'm probably never going to own a .416 Remington magnum, mostly because I'm in love with traditional rounds...I've heard guys boasting either way that one is more powerful or more accurate, but it's always the gun they own, so I take it with a gallon of salt. I've always had someone build rounds for me, and have just recently gotten into reloading myself, so it won't be that big of deal to me as far as ammo availability goes. As far as I'm concerned, it's kinda like comparing the .300 win and the .30-06 (both of which I've owned BTW), one's more powerful in some loads, the other in others, and one's more accurate in some while one's in others, and no deer is going to tell the difference, while no moose nor bear will know the difference in the .416's, it's a big @$$ bullet Moving right along (for a fat guy), and hitting like a truck...I'll just stick with what I like.
Screw the 10 ring, keep them in the zero!!!
I'm probably never going to own a .416 Remington magnum, mostly because I'm in love with traditional rounds...I've heard guys boasting either way that one is more powerful or more accurate, but it's always the gun they own, so I take it with a gallon of salt. I've always had someone build rounds for me, and have just recently gotten into reloading myself, so it won't be that big of deal to me as far as ammo availability goes. As far as I'm concerned, it's kinda like comparing the .300 win and the .30-06 (both of which I've owned BTW), one's more powerful in some loads, the other in others, and one's more accurate in some while one's in others, and no deer is going to tell the difference, while no moose nor bear will know the difference in the .416's, it's a big @$$ bullet Moving right along (for a fat guy), and hitting like a truck...I'll just stick with what I like.
Screw the 10 ring, keep them in the zero!!!
01-01-2003, 02:33 PM
#25
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rocky Mountains, Colorado
Posts: 1,964
RE: What do you shoot: poll kinda?
No Mercy, this post will probably only be of interest to a handful but may interest you. I talked to the safari guide down at our local range/big bore shop/shooting center (takes clients to Tanzania every year). He indicated he would be willing to sell me whatever I want (he had the full selection); however he recommended against either the 416 Rigby or 416 Rem Mag, indicating they were worthy calibers but there were better alternatives. In his view point the 416 is a "filler" caliber between 375 and 458 and not a particularly good one.
He pointed out that 416 bullet selection is rather limited and that 400 gr is pretty much the standard. He also pointed out a 458mag (with a "30-06" like range of bullet options) shooting 400 grain bullets will do everything a 416 shooting 400 gr bullets will do (velocity, energy, AND trajectory) with way LESS RECOIL because there is no shoulder on the case and its on the low end of the bullet weights for that caliber. He said, check the ballistic chart and you'll see it's true, I was on my heels at this point - kinda like taking a sip from a fire hose. He finished up with this. "Let me take you to Tanzania and lets go hunt some hippo or lets go hunt some cape buffalo or elephant = I'll take the 458 and you take either 416 and we'll see which is better. His point was that the 416 with 400s versus the 458 loaded up with 500s aren't even in the same league.
Then he switched over to the North American continent, "Now for big bears a 458 can be a problem (too much penetation on a "soft" hide critter and not too thick a meat mass) go with no bigger than the 400 grain soft point bullet, they're great fun on bears, just flaten's them and it is easy to shoot. Then he switched back to Africa again, "Now the 458 gives 5000 ft pounds of energy, if you need more just get a 458 Lott it will give you 6000 ft pounds of energy. I must have look puzzled so he explained, its esentially a 375HH necked out to 458 (long action required) - and it will shoot BOTH 458 Win Mag (5000 lbs) AND 458 Lott (6000 lbs) cartidges, kind of like a 3 inch 12 gauge shooting both 2 3/4 inch and 3 inch shells.
With my "416 dream" possibly in tatters and wanting to make a "smart" decission, I bought a new reloading book (with 416 and 458 data) and grabbed Federals and Winchesters Ammo literature and went home. As far as I can tell ballistically every thing he has said is true. I know for a fact he's been going to Africa 10 plus years and the fact he has it all in inventory and is willing to sell me what ever I want adds legitimacy to what he says. Am I missing anything here? Any pro-416 considerations?
As a side note, he cautioned me against the CZ because of the stock design. "You are a pretty long guy." "With these biggest bores fitting the gun to you is essential." "The way the CZ stock 'turns down' at the butt means that when we insert plates to lengthen the stock for you, this curve downward will become even more exaggerated thus ruining the fit and the "lineage" and it will kick you way harder than necessary because of it.
Wish I was giving out first hand experience, but big bore players are fewer in number and advice more scarce. Any comments are welcome. Never thought I might own a 458 of any sort but so far it sounds very versatile and I guess it would certainly anchor the upper end of my rack and the cost is about the same.
EKM
Good judgment comes from bad experience! Half of elk hunting is knowing what NOT to do!
Edited by - ELKampMaster on 01/01/2003 15:36:57
He pointed out that 416 bullet selection is rather limited and that 400 gr is pretty much the standard. He also pointed out a 458mag (with a "30-06" like range of bullet options) shooting 400 grain bullets will do everything a 416 shooting 400 gr bullets will do (velocity, energy, AND trajectory) with way LESS RECOIL because there is no shoulder on the case and its on the low end of the bullet weights for that caliber. He said, check the ballistic chart and you'll see it's true, I was on my heels at this point - kinda like taking a sip from a fire hose. He finished up with this. "Let me take you to Tanzania and lets go hunt some hippo or lets go hunt some cape buffalo or elephant = I'll take the 458 and you take either 416 and we'll see which is better. His point was that the 416 with 400s versus the 458 loaded up with 500s aren't even in the same league.
Then he switched over to the North American continent, "Now for big bears a 458 can be a problem (too much penetation on a "soft" hide critter and not too thick a meat mass) go with no bigger than the 400 grain soft point bullet, they're great fun on bears, just flaten's them and it is easy to shoot. Then he switched back to Africa again, "Now the 458 gives 5000 ft pounds of energy, if you need more just get a 458 Lott it will give you 6000 ft pounds of energy. I must have look puzzled so he explained, its esentially a 375HH necked out to 458 (long action required) - and it will shoot BOTH 458 Win Mag (5000 lbs) AND 458 Lott (6000 lbs) cartidges, kind of like a 3 inch 12 gauge shooting both 2 3/4 inch and 3 inch shells.
With my "416 dream" possibly in tatters and wanting to make a "smart" decission, I bought a new reloading book (with 416 and 458 data) and grabbed Federals and Winchesters Ammo literature and went home. As far as I can tell ballistically every thing he has said is true. I know for a fact he's been going to Africa 10 plus years and the fact he has it all in inventory and is willing to sell me what ever I want adds legitimacy to what he says. Am I missing anything here? Any pro-416 considerations?
As a side note, he cautioned me against the CZ because of the stock design. "You are a pretty long guy." "With these biggest bores fitting the gun to you is essential." "The way the CZ stock 'turns down' at the butt means that when we insert plates to lengthen the stock for you, this curve downward will become even more exaggerated thus ruining the fit and the "lineage" and it will kick you way harder than necessary because of it.
Wish I was giving out first hand experience, but big bore players are fewer in number and advice more scarce. Any comments are welcome. Never thought I might own a 458 of any sort but so far it sounds very versatile and I guess it would certainly anchor the upper end of my rack and the cost is about the same.
EKM
Good judgment comes from bad experience! Half of elk hunting is knowing what NOT to do!
Edited by - ELKampMaster on 01/01/2003 15:36:57
01-01-2003, 07:12 PM
#26
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Alexandria VA USA
Posts: 27
RE: What do you shoot: poll kinda?
.458 Win Vs. 416s
Elk,
PLEASE take what your acquaintance told you with a sober and judicious grain of salt.
First of all, the .416 is not merely a "filler" between adjacent bore-sizes. Unless I'm missing something, the .416 Rigby was introduced a good half-century before the .458 Win as the PRIMARY bolt-action dangerous-game cartridge. The .416 was (and still is) used extremely successfully, and I predict the various .416s will outlast the .458 Win in popularity now that cheaper rifles so chambered are readily available. Also, the increasing acceptance of the.458 Lott is evidence of the fact that the Win is falling in disfavor.
In recent years, the .458 Win has been gradually but steadily falling out of favor with both rifle and ammo manufacturers, while more and more firms are churning out products in the various .416s. That's because more and more hunters are abandoning the former for the latter.
Also, many experienced professionals greatly prefer the .416 and lament the fact that the .458 Win is barely able to break 2,000fps with the 500-gr load (meaning that it doesn't even approach the 5,100 f/lbs of the .416). Conceived in the era of the short-magnum craze, the .458 Win simply lacks the powder capacity to comfortably surpass that barrier.
With its 2.5" case, the .458's "versatility" is mainly in the fact that you can load it down to 45-70 levels. Sure, this makes it fun to shoot and a joy to handload.
But the versatility of the .416 stems from the fact that it remains comfortably above 5,000f/lbs in ANY form, and that you can comfortably and easily approach the 3,000fps barrier with some bullets that still retain good sectional density and ballistic coefficient (like the 350gr). This makes the .416 a long-range rig, in a pinch. Not so the .458 Win.
But let me counter numbers with numbers.
1) In factory form, the 500-gr .458 Win clocks at 1,950fps, with an energy level of 4,000f/lbs. The 410-gr .416 Rigby, instead, comes out at a full 2,350 fps for an energy of well over 5,000f/lbs. Sectional density (SD) of the two bullets, incidentally, differs by only 0.003. Advantage: .416.
2) In handloaded form, you can beat these figures. But you can beat them more easily in the case of the .416, with its lower pressures and ample case capacity. In factory form, the short, stubby .458 case is almost completely crammed with powder ~ if you want to put more in, you have to carefully compress your loads and you still won't be able to beat 2,050 fps consistently. Try and believe.
3) There are a lot of excellent, easily-available bullets in .416. There may be a few more for the .458 diameter, but not enough to qualify the .458 Win as a "better choice" as a consequence.
4) With all due respect, comparing a 400-gr .458 bullet and a 400-gr .416 is comparing apples to oranges. The 400-grainer *IS* pretty much the standard load for the .416, while, as you know, it is 100 grains lighter than the standard 500-gr .458. Let's compare, instead, a 400-gr .458 to a 350-gr .416 ~ the latter will have still more sectional density, ballistic coefficient and a lot more veloclty ~ approaching the 3K mark. Incidentally, I don't believe that, even if the two 400-grainers were pushed at the same velocity, the Win will kick MUCH less (as your acquaintance claims). The nominal variation in recoil would be more academic than "felt".
Now, are more velocity, energy and SD always a good thing? No, not always. And the more "economical" .458 may have its advantages in other regards. But to place it so categorically above the .416 is more a sign of personal bias than fact.
Please don't let one man's opinion spoil your "416 dream". You may also hear people who poo-pooh the .375, even among professionals (I know some who do!) ~ hey, some hunters in this country hate even the 30-06!. Does that make the .375 (or the 30-06) bad cartridges? Hardly.
The .458 is a nice cartridge that is a lot of fun to shoot (especially if you handload ~ up or down), but I don't believe it can be ranked above a .416, which I think has all the advantages and none of the disadvantages.
Remember that for every opinionated guy badmouthing the .416 there are ten Harry Selbys who founded their whole legendary careers on this cartridge to the exclusion of all others!
Now that I gave you my rant, my advice to you is to hear as many opinions as possible and than make up your own mind based on your individual needs. Big bores are a lot of fun, but they are very personal BECAUSE they are more of a want than a need in this country. Don't do yourself the disfavor of letting someone else (me included <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>) choose for you out of their own biases. If in doubt, get two cheap Ruger #1s (as I did) and compare them for yourself.
Since from your posts I can see that you are a serious student of the big bore, if you haven't already, pick up a copy of John Taylor's African Rifles and Cartridges and of Craig Boddington's Safari Rifles and read them cover to cover. They are tons of fun to read, but they are also extremely instructive and fact-based books, especially on big bores. Boddington's last chapter, BTW, features a very extensive poll of the most relevant African PHs about their cartridge preference AND their reasoning behind it. Read it and see what they say.
Incidentally, I once had the rare fortune of discussing big-bore cartridges with Mr. Boddington, and he greatly prefers the .416 to the .458 (of which he is not a big fan). He may not be a PH, but as far as clients go, I think he is possibly one of the most experienced African hunters of today.
With all due respect to your acquaintance, his personal experience with cartridges and his subsequent opinion, I think his conclusion about the .416 is very debatable.
Tom
Greetings from Blue Ridge Country
Edited by - .333 Nitro Express on 01/01/2003 22:34:39
Elk,
PLEASE take what your acquaintance told you with a sober and judicious grain of salt.
First of all, the .416 is not merely a "filler" between adjacent bore-sizes. Unless I'm missing something, the .416 Rigby was introduced a good half-century before the .458 Win as the PRIMARY bolt-action dangerous-game cartridge. The .416 was (and still is) used extremely successfully, and I predict the various .416s will outlast the .458 Win in popularity now that cheaper rifles so chambered are readily available. Also, the increasing acceptance of the.458 Lott is evidence of the fact that the Win is falling in disfavor.
In recent years, the .458 Win has been gradually but steadily falling out of favor with both rifle and ammo manufacturers, while more and more firms are churning out products in the various .416s. That's because more and more hunters are abandoning the former for the latter.
Also, many experienced professionals greatly prefer the .416 and lament the fact that the .458 Win is barely able to break 2,000fps with the 500-gr load (meaning that it doesn't even approach the 5,100 f/lbs of the .416). Conceived in the era of the short-magnum craze, the .458 Win simply lacks the powder capacity to comfortably surpass that barrier.
With its 2.5" case, the .458's "versatility" is mainly in the fact that you can load it down to 45-70 levels. Sure, this makes it fun to shoot and a joy to handload.
But the versatility of the .416 stems from the fact that it remains comfortably above 5,000f/lbs in ANY form, and that you can comfortably and easily approach the 3,000fps barrier with some bullets that still retain good sectional density and ballistic coefficient (like the 350gr). This makes the .416 a long-range rig, in a pinch. Not so the .458 Win.
But let me counter numbers with numbers.
1) In factory form, the 500-gr .458 Win clocks at 1,950fps, with an energy level of 4,000f/lbs. The 410-gr .416 Rigby, instead, comes out at a full 2,350 fps for an energy of well over 5,000f/lbs. Sectional density (SD) of the two bullets, incidentally, differs by only 0.003. Advantage: .416.
2) In handloaded form, you can beat these figures. But you can beat them more easily in the case of the .416, with its lower pressures and ample case capacity. In factory form, the short, stubby .458 case is almost completely crammed with powder ~ if you want to put more in, you have to carefully compress your loads and you still won't be able to beat 2,050 fps consistently. Try and believe.
3) There are a lot of excellent, easily-available bullets in .416. There may be a few more for the .458 diameter, but not enough to qualify the .458 Win as a "better choice" as a consequence.
4) With all due respect, comparing a 400-gr .458 bullet and a 400-gr .416 is comparing apples to oranges. The 400-grainer *IS* pretty much the standard load for the .416, while, as you know, it is 100 grains lighter than the standard 500-gr .458. Let's compare, instead, a 400-gr .458 to a 350-gr .416 ~ the latter will have still more sectional density, ballistic coefficient and a lot more veloclty ~ approaching the 3K mark. Incidentally, I don't believe that, even if the two 400-grainers were pushed at the same velocity, the Win will kick MUCH less (as your acquaintance claims). The nominal variation in recoil would be more academic than "felt".
Now, are more velocity, energy and SD always a good thing? No, not always. And the more "economical" .458 may have its advantages in other regards. But to place it so categorically above the .416 is more a sign of personal bias than fact.
Please don't let one man's opinion spoil your "416 dream". You may also hear people who poo-pooh the .375, even among professionals (I know some who do!) ~ hey, some hunters in this country hate even the 30-06!. Does that make the .375 (or the 30-06) bad cartridges? Hardly.
The .458 is a nice cartridge that is a lot of fun to shoot (especially if you handload ~ up or down), but I don't believe it can be ranked above a .416, which I think has all the advantages and none of the disadvantages.
Remember that for every opinionated guy badmouthing the .416 there are ten Harry Selbys who founded their whole legendary careers on this cartridge to the exclusion of all others!
Now that I gave you my rant, my advice to you is to hear as many opinions as possible and than make up your own mind based on your individual needs. Big bores are a lot of fun, but they are very personal BECAUSE they are more of a want than a need in this country. Don't do yourself the disfavor of letting someone else (me included <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>) choose for you out of their own biases. If in doubt, get two cheap Ruger #1s (as I did) and compare them for yourself.
Since from your posts I can see that you are a serious student of the big bore, if you haven't already, pick up a copy of John Taylor's African Rifles and Cartridges and of Craig Boddington's Safari Rifles and read them cover to cover. They are tons of fun to read, but they are also extremely instructive and fact-based books, especially on big bores. Boddington's last chapter, BTW, features a very extensive poll of the most relevant African PHs about their cartridge preference AND their reasoning behind it. Read it and see what they say.
Incidentally, I once had the rare fortune of discussing big-bore cartridges with Mr. Boddington, and he greatly prefers the .416 to the .458 (of which he is not a big fan). He may not be a PH, but as far as clients go, I think he is possibly one of the most experienced African hunters of today.
With all due respect to your acquaintance, his personal experience with cartridges and his subsequent opinion, I think his conclusion about the .416 is very debatable.
Tom
Greetings from Blue Ridge Country
Edited by - .333 Nitro Express on 01/01/2003 22:34:39
01-01-2003, 11:18 PM
#27
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rocky Mountains, Colorado
Posts: 1,964
RE: What do you shoot: poll kinda?
Nitro,
I read your post both before and after it was edited and appreciate the degree of thought and articulation you put into both. The research continues. Will absorb all the info and then decide. Thanks
EKM
Good judgment comes from bad experience! Half of elk hunting is knowing what NOT to do!
I read your post both before and after it was edited and appreciate the degree of thought and articulation you put into both. The research continues. Will absorb all the info and then decide. Thanks
EKM
Good judgment comes from bad experience! Half of elk hunting is knowing what NOT to do!
01-03-2003, 09:58 AM
#30
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Being held POW in ALEXANDRIA VIRGINIA USA
Posts: 811
RE: What do you shoot: poll kinda?
Rackem
That was meant as a joke. Never meant to offend anyone.
We all come here to gain knowledge and BS and we like it to be fun too. These guys know how I feel about their big bores, as well as I know how they feel about my .243
They also know that I like to tickle a rib and if I can get one in I will.
Please accept my apoligy. And Lets all have fun....
Good Luck. Capt Brad.
That was meant as a joke. Never meant to offend anyone.
We all come here to gain knowledge and BS and we like it to be fun too. These guys know how I feel about their big bores, as well as I know how they feel about my .243
They also know that I like to tickle a rib and if I can get one in I will.
Please accept my apoligy. And Lets all have fun....
Good Luck. Capt Brad.