caselesss5

attention killer primate....(hows that)

i was unaware that we have to use formal rules of english in an internet forum. excuse me for my obviously asinine behavior.

next was i wrong to read your post to call the others in this thread that are of opposite opinion as the pigs that surround you? and wasn't the mention of fools directed at the same bunch? besides the fact that i never said you were speaking of seraphg.

and again you must excuse me for not mentioning your name at the beginning of my post, i guess giving you the benefit of the doubt that you can figure out who is replying in response to you was too much to ask. by the way, i quoted your post and in the bottom corner it says who i am replying to. sorry if this is too complicated of a system for you.

most graciously and begging your absolute forgiveness

-caselesss5


[/quote]

Caselesss5,
Please look at who I addressed my comment to. I did like his posts, and I respect his opinion. So I decided to close with "respectfully". I found this to be appropriate.
"Funny", you didn't address your comment to anyone. You imply that it is for me to read, I guess, since it isdirected at me. You didn't close your post either, and then comment on how I perform this function, "funny".
Disrespectfully,
KP
[/quote]

EKM

Wuff,
Gettin' deep.

MinnFinn

Where's the Department of Documenting Wolf Damage and Attacks?
Obviously, nobody in the gov't and nobody like you gives a rip about people here and in states who deal with an over abundance of wolves in MN and several other states. We've seen and heard people like you for decades. You don't care when 15% of a small family ranch's cows/calvesin Montana (documented) were killed by Gray Wolves. They sold their ranch, because of it.

Wolves are "shy' when they haven'tbeen hunted and/or trapped. They used to be much more likely to avoid people here too, until they were put on the worshipped ES list. Now anyone who'd even eliminate one in self-defense or to protect their animals would be put in prison and fined $100K. That's asinine! People have the right to defend themselves from people who mean them bodily harm, but not a wolf!?

By the way, wolf's cousin the coyote had a very well documented attack on a toddler in NJ in the last week. Gray wolves are a whole lot bigger and able to kill a lot quicker. No one hunts or traps them anymore in MN, except rare occasions where farmers have had considerable predation. Only then do the "documenters" come out to "study" the situation. So, they aren't "shy" as you might believe.

Wolves here aren't afraid of people; in spite of what "experts" you've read say. I see these animals regularly. You can yell and they don't run. They killed deer and dog within 75 yards of our family's back door in our clearing as recent as this Jan. and Feb.

They picked off a lady's dog we personally know less than 50 feet in front of her as she walked on the gravel road up here.

This is repeated across NE and parts of northern MN every year. Why should we try to “document” anything. You and others like you don’t believe.

And the statement about wolf-hybrids. Maybe somewhere there are such. If you've ever seen a Timber (Gray) Wolf within 1/4 mile there is no hybrid that looks or hunts like these Wolves. They'll send a corkscrew up your spine when they lock eyes with you. These wild wolves here would kill any such "hybrids" faster than you could document it. And when they do kill it, there isn’t much left on the bones shortly afterward.

Sorry you're so tied to the misinformed often repeated myths. But I'm just telling you reality. But maybe if you petition Congress you can get your own "Red" Wolf reintroduction program started near you, like they plan for some other eastern states. Hopefully it’ll be in your backyard. So, you can learn first hand about federal gov’t total control of your personal and property rights, when it comes to wolves. Good Luck!

SeraphG

MinnFinn,

I'm sorry for that one family you mentioned - that would suck. But just one example isn't an excuse to eradicate a population. My position is that if these wolves are becoming a problem they should be tagged and relocated. Or if they attack a human, destroyed. Futher, my position is that outright war on a species is 'so 1855''; much of the wildlife in the US that can be hunted is because someone realized. 'Uh hey boss, we almost killdedd them all... we better slows down or dem is gonna be alls gone.' Sadly, some haven't learned and would rather just hunt species' into the ground.

Also, why didn't the family get paid???

"Wolves and Wolf Management in Minnesota"
"[font="times roman,times new roman"]The U.S. Department of Agriculture legally kills approximately 100-200 problem wolves in Minnesota each year for depredation on livestock. This involves approximately five farms per 1000 in wolf range, one cow per 10,000 available, and one sheep per 1,000 available. The State Department of Agriculture pays compensation up to $750 per animal for verified complaints. Recent legislation mandates compensation of fair market value."

NJ....The kid received scratches and wasn't even bitten. To quote the expert in the article: "But usually the animals (coyotes) run away when they see people, he said."
http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070410/NEWS/704100301
Coyote attacks on youngsters are well established - the same for wolves can not be said.

Irrespective of your comparrison (A close cousin), coys != (do not equal) wolves. I won't even address that except to point out that my 100lb female South African Boerboel is a 'close cousin' to a boston terrier (or any other dog with 'bull' in the name) but I'm pretty sure you're gonna wanna treat them differently; they aren't exactly the same:



(BTW, she's a lover, unless you decide to come in the house or backyard without being introduced by 'Dad' or 'Mom')

The other examples you mention (and the other coyote activity mentioned in that article) are classic canine to canine territorial aggression.... wolves are extremely territorial and will go out of their way to kill dogs. Hunt cougars with dogs in wolf country and you'll find out soon enough I'm told.

Oh and we have coyotes here in Maryland - they've been here since 1972, though I've never seen one myself.

I mention hybrids because many of the purported cases of wolf attacks are padded by attacks that are by wolf-hybrids:

http://www.aws.vcn.com/wolf_attacks_on_humans.html
http://www.wildsentry.org/WolfAttack.html
http://www.leerburg.com/wolf2.htm

In fact, very few cases of wolf attacks on humans have occurred in documented history. By comparison, in 1996, 130 people died from collisions with whitetail deer, and 32 died from dog attacks. Let's deal with our out of control dachsund population before we kill all of the wolves, ok?

http://www.understand-a-bull.com/BSL/OtherBreedBites/2002/WashingtonPost12172002MD.pdf

And with that in mind, here is a list breeds that have caused at least one fatality within the past two decades:


Akita; Australian Shepherd; Boxer; Bulldog; Bullmastiff; Chesapeake Bay Retriever; Chow Chow; Cocker Spaniel; Collie; Coonhound; Dachshund, Doberman; Golden Retriever; Great Dane; Hound-"type" (may include crossbreeds); Husky; Japanese Hunting Dog; Labrador Retriever; Lhasa Apso, Malamute; Mastiff; Mixed-breed(where dog was known to be a mixed-breed, does not include dogs whose breed was not known); Newfoundland; Pit bull "type" (may include crosses or misidentified individuals); Pomeranian, Rhodesian Ridgeback; Rottweiler; German Shepherd Dog; Saint Bernard; Sheepdog; Sled-"type" (may include crossbreeds); Terrier-"type" (may include crossbreeds); West Highland White Terrier; Wolf/Dog hybrid, Yorkshire Terrier.

Besides, if you read my posts, I'm not saying the species shouldn't be managed if they are becoming a nusiance - but many folks would rather replace the word manage with 'kill' and be done with it. And that's the exact selfish reason so many species are gone forever.

My mentor once said something to me that is one of the more profound lessons I've learned. 'Very few things in life that are easy are worth doing. And nearly everything that is good or good for you is hard work. So don't chafe under the yolk of hard work - only good can come of it.'

Killing wolves is easy. Saving them for future generations to enjoy... that's hard work.

MinnFinn

I'm sorry you're so caught up in the second hand propaganda pushed out by those who publish and repeat the myths about wolves. They are large very strong carnivorous pack oriented predators. They can attack and kill anything in North America, aside from large bears. People are not immune, particularly in places where wolves have no fear of people (e.g. states where wolves haven’t been hunted or trapped in decades).
I and most people I know who actually LIVE in wolf country DON'T hate them for that and don’t want them "eradicated", as you and those like you continue to spread that canard. I've stated that on several occasions. And I don’t approve or practice illegally killing them. So, please stop the falsehoods attributing them to me or others who live in areas where there are very high populations of wolves. We know wolves and appreciate them far more than you’ll ever know way out their in Maryland. Few people here would break the law, as you seem so eager to grab onto “one” example that someone said they knew someone who…. We’ve been raised by honest, law-abiding grandparents/parents. But we also have a keen sense of what’s right, fair and just. The current Federally imposed draconian system of virtually no wolf trapping or hunting meets none of those standards.

We do want and deserve, as even MN DNR and some noted "wolf experts" in NE MN admit need to manage (control) wolf population in this state. Again I repeat for your benefit we're not looking to eliminate, but put reasonable controls on their numbers. Without this, both whitetail deer (their primary prey), moose and other animals they eat go through very extreme population swings. Guess what happens when wolves prey plummets? Wolves starve and/or spread to rural non-wolf range. They are even moving down the river valleys and out to some places in the Dakotas. There's more likelihood of human conflict with them in both cases. This results in more public pressure and wolves will probably be the losers in that battle.
People in other parts of the state and non-typical wolf range just don't share your enthusiasm when their animals, cattle, horses, dogs, etc. are killed. Even your dog would easily become a meal for a small pack of Timber (Gray) wolves. We have seen packs of over a dozen of them in our NE MN land. Many families whose roots go back over 100 years in this area, like ours, tell of the same things for many years. Are you getting this documented? I know you want documentation. Still didn’t get that dept. name from you who to contact to get these things “documented”.

I repeat, despite your doubts to the contrary, these are NOT hybreds dog/wolves. This is not your semi-suburban or even East coast country. This is still pretty rugged country in parts of northern MN. Wild is good. But we want to be able to protect ourselves as any normal person would.
Your continued insistence on this only reinforces what I knew before. You have no first hand knowledge on this topic. You links don’t impress. I’ve read and heard so many other supposed “experts”. Most don’t even live in wolf range. They read and write and repeat the same sort of the b……. we’ve heard for over 30 years here.

The DNR "compensation fund" for wolf kills runs out of money within the first couple months of every year. “Verifiably” it’s a joke. If you find anything I say at all insulting, I couldn’t help return the favor after your insulting posts. It’s evident you don’t really want to learn from people who know the score on wolves, who’ve lived around them for years. So, go your way and I’ll go mine.
Hope the “Red Wolf” project comes your way some day.
Good Luck!

SeraphG

Minnerator,

Hmmmm - I didn't insult you and never attributed anything to you personally - sorry you had to sink to that, but no worries.

I even made a point of agreeing with you and twice now you have gotten testy with me....

I think you missed the part where I said I don't have a problem with wanting to have them managed. Based on what we are reading here, they also seem to be thriving in CO as well. You'll probably just need to wait until there are more of them and they become a problem before any hunting is going to be permitted. And even then I'm sure it would only be in limited numbers.

But you should look some things up about your own state before you try to pick a fight with me.

I mean, I know they kill hundreds of nuisance wolves per year, despite being endangered...Oh wait... that's right... the wolf is off the ES list in Minnesota... dang... I... I mean gosh... I dont even live there and found that out... just wait 5 years and you'll get your chance there, Happy Pants.

http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/mammals/wolves/mgmt.html
http://www.mda.state.mn.us/ams/wolf.htm


"Minnesota's gray wolf population has been officially removed from the federal endangered species list and will be managed by the Department of Natural Resources (DNR). Federal rules removing the Great Lakes population of gray wolves from the endangered species list took effect in Wisconsin and Michigan as well. Wolves will be managed in Minnesota by state statute, rule and under a wolf management plan. Read the Delisting FAQ.
The state wolf plan is designed to protect wolves and monitor their population while giving owners of livestock and domestic pets more protection from wolf depredation. It splits the state into two management zones with more protective regulations in the northern third, considered the wolf's core range.
The plan establishes a minimum population of 1,600 wolves to ensure the long-term survival of the wolf in Minnesota. The state's wolf population, estimated at fewer than 750 animals in the 1950s, has grown to its current estimate of 3,020. There will be no public hunting or trapping seasons for wolves for at least five years. The endangered species act requires the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to monitor wolves in Minnesota for five years after delisting to ensure that recovery continues."

Oh and the assertion that you get fined for killing one to protect oneself is also false: ( http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/natural...lfplan2000.pdf )

but poaching one is a no-no... but 100k? PSHAAAW....

[ul][*]harassment of wolves to discourage contact with humans will be allowed[/ul] [ul][*]killing of wolves in defense of human life will continue to be allowed [/ul] Enforcement
• illegal wolf taking is a gross misdemeanor, punishable by fines up to $3,000 and
imprisonment in the county jail for up to one year
• the restitution value for illegally taken wolves is $2,000
• the release of captive wolves (except by permit) or wolf-dog hybrids is prohibited
• activities necessary to enforce wolf laws and regulations will be initiated and
increased

To be honest, it sounds like your govt has a great plan in place and will expand it as needed. Its phased, measured and with alot of checks and balances.

You should really try to read someone's post with an open mind- I didn't attack or insult you. I haven't debated anyone that has said they wanted to manage the wolf population. I've been concise and clear. Sorry you got all bunched up. Take a nitro tab and breathe deep. It'll pass. I'm done with this thread. /hugs MinnFinn because he knows its just gonna make 'em mad.

lol

BigTiny

Sounds like you folks in the North Woods got yourself a problem. Looks like your problem is more with government than wolves. Wolves are the symptom of the disease of unresponsive government. I noticed the law set a minimum number of wolves allowable but no maximum. That's no way to manage the population of anything. Get on your representatives to set a maximum population and then turn over the management of that population to folks who do wildlife management. That way when the estimated population of wolves gets too high, your wildlife management department in your state would be allowed to start issuing tags for wolves when the population gets too high. When the population falls below the maximum for a set length of time, they could stop issuing tags for wolves until the numbers come up again. Maybe even have a special wolf hunting permit they could sell for a few dollars in addition to the regular hunting license. If you make it look like it will generate revenue, you will get more attention from legislators. Don't expect government to do anything just because they are supposed to do it, you have to hound them.

KodiakArcher

SeraphG,
re:documented attacks by wolves on humans. Coincidentally last week there was a whole hour show on this on Discovery Channel. I think it was Hunter vs. Hunted or something to that effect. There's been several documented attacks and at least one known fatality with a full coroner's investigation and independant University 'expert' investigation here in AK. I'll have to go digging for more details on it. I just happened across it while channel surfing.

SeraphG

KodiakArcher,

Yep, Alaska and Canada have had some attacks its true. Here's a study from up your way on it:

http://wildlife.state.co.us/NR/rdonlyres/A00ED365-C0FE-4320-80B8-2C7FCE8733CD/0/WolfHuman_Encounters.pdf

Unfortunately, the vast majority of these attacks stemmed from food-conditioned animals... alot of folks don't know how to respect the 'wild' in wildlife and subsequently make follow-up human-animal encounters dangerous for others.

Of course, there are tens of thousands of wolves up North - that report in 2002 estimates them to be in the 59,000-70,000 range at that time and down here in the 48 we have a fraction of that.

Are you able to hunt them up there? How do they act towards humans?

AK Jeff

Up here in Alaska we had one wolf attack and another thwarted attack both occur on the same day last year. In one instance a young woman went for an early morning walk and was attacked by a wolf. She was able to fight back and made a run for a roadside rest stop bathroom where she holed up until help arrived. She was bitten several times, but survived. That very same day a guy riding his bicycle was chased down the road by a wolf, and a truck driver that drove up on them saw the scene and ran the wolf over. Both incidents happened on the Dalton Highway in northern AK, and were far enough apart that it couldn't have been the same wolf. The one obviously died and the other was never tracked down.

SeraphG, you asked if we can hunt them here and what they act like? Yes, we can hunt them here, but contrary to one of your earlier statements that"killing wolves is easy"that couldn't be further from the truth. Killing wolves is generally extremely difficult. They're very keyed in to their surroundings and they're generally well aware of anything that poses a threat to their well being. Wolves are individuals and they all act differently. I've seen them run away at the first glimpse of people, I've seen them watching cautiously from a safe distance, and I've seen them run toward people with absolutely no fear whatsoever. The latter happened while I was caribou hunting in northern AK. That particular wolf kept approaching us at a steady trot, even after I shot and missed it. It didn't show even a hint of fear and unfortunately for him, my second shot didn't miss.

Now here's the really important question...How many of you have eaten wolf? If you haven't you should try it if given the chance, because it is surprisingly tastey. Only downside is you may end up trying to scratch your ear with your foot and/or lick your own butt after dinner.