RuRu12

VBM - That is a very weak arguement. PETA(and other radical animal rights groups) will not decide the future of hunting in this country, non-hunters will. How we practice our sport, and the way we present ourselves to the non-hunting majority is far more important that what PETA does or thinks. We must police ourselves internally if we are to continue to practice the pastime we love. Just as Teddy Roosevelt and his cohorts saved hunting and made it into the modern sport of today through the adoption of a new ethic, we too must police ourselves internally and remove the elements that endanger our future. The killing of captive semi-tame animals and calling it hunting has great potential to harm our cause. We as hunters are continually saying that what we do is not about killing for the sake of killing, or about hanging another head on the wall to feed our egos. What do plces that advertise "No Kill - No Pay", "Guaranteed Success" say about hunting? They even advertise and charge by the trophy score of the animal taken. This type of ethic and this type of "hunting" has nothing positive to contribute to our future.

"If you can't change your circumstances then you need to change your perspective."

VBM

Excuse me RuRu, but PETA and their ilk will indeed determine the future of hunting in this country as long as we as sportsmen divide ourselves voluntarily. PETA et al are very adept at communicating with the unwashed masses as they refer to them. We as hunters do virtually nothing to communicate with the majority of non-hunters. The vast majority of non-hunters have NO idea what goes on during hunting season and most could care less. Only when an organization like PETA spreads their falsehoods and lies do the majority of non-hunters hear about the sport of hunting. If we are going to harass those that try a canned hunt what are we going to do to those that pay someone else to kill their meat for them? If a canned hunt is so bad then buying beef at the store must be horrible beyond belief. If you are so dead set against others entering the sport of hunting thru any channel other than your prefered method then YOU my friend are PETA's greatest ally. I'm sure Mark and other new hunters will indeed learn a lesson from this...don't trust the so called ethical experts.

RuRu12

Excuse me VBM, but me one of PETA's greatest allies? You start from so far out in left field that I don't think you can even see the game. Do you honestly think that a few thousand radicals are going to stop a whole society from eating meat?

I will agree with you about one thing. The unwashed masses - your characterizations, not mine - are who will decide the future of our sport. I would also agree that we do a poor job of communicating with non-hunters. Part of that poor representation of our sport is typified by the existence of these canned hunts.

There is another thread in this forum where one of our long time board members has voiced his distaste concerning some of the shows he has seen on the Outdoor Channel. I too find myself cringing when I see celebrity hunters shooting half-tame animals from box blinds over bait piles on high-fenced preserves, and then later in the conclusion segment of the show talking about what a tough hunt they had today. Give me a break, a couple of hours in a Lazy-Boy parked next to a corn feeder constitutes a tough hunt? If hunters find these types of hunts distasteful and unsporting, then can you imagine how they look through the eyes of the non-hunting public?

If you look at surveys of the non-hunting public support for hunting is relatively strong. That is as long as hunters use the meat from the animals that they harvest, and that the hunt is accomplished in a fair chase manner without undue suffering to the animal. When non-hunters are asked specific questions concerning baiting, hunting high-fenced enclosures, hunting animals specifically introduced for the purpose of hunting, hunting big game with dogs, or trophy hunting their support universally drops. Why? Simple, because the non-hunting majority in this country views these hunting activities as being all about the killing of the animal, not about the participation in the activity.

There are basically two ways to improve our image concerning these areas with the non-hunting public.

The first is education. Through an education effort hunters could make the case to the non-hunting public as to why these activities are ethical pursuits and should be supported. Obviously it would be a lot easier to make that case for some activities then others. For example it is relatively simple to explain the benefits to the animal population that are resultant from trophy hunting, and to debunk the dark-side associated with the practice. Do you think an effective case can be made to the non-hunting public for the existence of preserves and the sporting qualities of canned hunts?

The second method of improving our image, and I believe the appropriate thing to do in the case of canned hunts, is to police ourselves internally and eliminate the questionable practice.

If you wish to debate this topic I am more than willing to do so, but if you are please answer my questions and refrain from slandering me by calling me PETA’s best friend. Can you make a case for why we should allow the continued existence of preserves and canned hunts?


"If you can't change your circumstances then you need to change your perspective."

GR8atta2d

Hmmm the topic that won't die. As arguments continue, this topic gets more emotion filled and facts begin to get "created".
"Half tamed animals raised to be killed for the meat", We have just defined every "farmer" as an "unethical" preserve. Yes, I can go to my neighborhood farm and pick the animal to be slaughtered and pay for the meat. I have been to actual bull fights (Mexico) and witnessed animals being killed for so called sport. Do I agree with all this, that is not the point. The fact is it is legal. What is ethical, What is not ethical, and who decides? We can argue every method of taking game animals and we will not reach a consences statement on what is fair chase. If the law says it is legal and proper methods are used and the kill is quick and humane and the meat is properly cared for and consumed, then it has to be considered ethical. This does not mean you have to agree or participate. I have said in every reply that if we want to outlaw this type of thing it puts every thing we do under the microscope. What about these "fair chase" ranches that you have to pay based on rack size. Is this not the same thing? Watch espn or tnn on the weekends, guys are shooting managment bucks for $1500 dollars instead of shooting the Big Boys that go for 5000-45000 dollars. Hunting as we would like to define it is being in the wild and using our SKILLS to take the best animal we can, but the law does not always agree. If we get on the band wagon to outlaw so called canned hunts, don't be surprised if somehow it trickles down to affect each of us. Choose your battles carefully.

RuRu12

Badatta2d - We weren't talking about farming or bull fights. We were discussing the ethics of killing farm raised animals and calling it hunting.

"If you can't change your circumstances then you need to change your perspective."

GR8atta2d

Your not talking about farming?? reread your post and I quote "We weren't talking about farming or bull fights. We were discussing the ethics of killing farm raised animals and calling it hunting."

Umm "farm raised animals" say again??

VBM

RuRu, a few thousand radicals can indeed change the eating habits of a nation just as they have changed the fashion industry. I am old enough to remember when all that alot of kids could talk about was getting a coonskin cap. Try to buy one today. I can remember when the high fashion folks all wore furs. That is not the case today is it? If the hunters, trappers, fur farmers and furriers of the time had all pulled together then perhaps the kids of today could still take delight in a coonskin cap. Perhaps, if you could afford one, you could buy your wife a beautiful fur coat and not have to worry about her being harrassed when she wore it. As we all know the hunters, trappers, fur farmers and the furriers of the day began to fight amongst themselves. One group saying that the others method of obtaining fur was unethical or cruel. This division and the radicals constant berating of the general public has made a rather large change to the fashion industry. I do not wish to see the end of hunting. If we continue to fragment ourselves by pointing fingers at different segments of the hunting industry we will be aiding PETA and other anti-hunting groups. Right now as I type there are groups attempting to get the wolf reintroduced to many places that haven't seen a wolf in close to one hundred years. If they succeed then hunting as we know it will change forever. Hunters will no longer be needed to control the size of herds and deer and elk will become to scarce to allow hunting. If you don't believe me talk to some of the folks from Idaho.The cessation of hunting is not the end goal of groups such as PETA and ALF but that is a discussion for a political science forum. It is nice that you are so passionate about hunting,however, you need to realize that by savaging one part of the hunting community that is both legal and by extension ethical YOU are indeed helping the radical element in our society to destroy our sport.

Edited by - vbm on 12/23/2002 14:05:11

Bullkllr

The past several years have brought major changes to hunting in my home state,Washington.

We can longer use hounds for bear, cougar, or bobcat.

No bait can be used for the above critters either,

No body gripping traps for any animal- essentially trapping has nearly been eliminated.

This has got to send the message that it can happen anywhere!

We need to all stand up for all, even if we don't use or agree with the method. But by the same token, I don't feel the need to praise some guy for shooting a captive elk (also illegal in my state).

RuRu12

Badatta2d - You selectively read my post, and left out the key phrase; "calling it hunting". If you want to shoot farm animals more power to you. I've got some steers to sell and if you want to shoot them with a .300 Win Mag I couldn't care less, just don't call it hunting.

VBM - I just bought two coonskin caps this past October. I purchased them as souvenirs for my five-year-old daughter and two-year-old son while on my return trip from Wyoming where I was on a real hunt. As far as wolf reintroduction goes I agree it is a terrible thing and that it is being driven by an agenda quite different than the one that is being sold to the general public. I would also agree that groups like PETA and ALF do pose a threat to our sport. Where I disagree is with the premise that we as hunters should support any legal method or premise of killing an animal and being satisfied with it being labeled as hunting. I believe that if we are to convince the non-hunting public that groups like PETA, HSUS, and ALF are wrong about hunting then we must first have our house in order. How can we talk about conservation, balancing herds with habitat, experiencing nature by participation, and all of the other arguments we use to support why hunting has a place in today's world when we are shooting bull elk wearing ear tags inside fenced enclosures as small as a few hundred acres?

I say these things about hunting preserves not being unfamiliar with them. One of the most successful trophy whitetail operations in the country is within an hours drive of my home, and I am well aquatinted with its owner. This preserve has been featured on The Outdoor Channel on several different shows, and in hunting videos made by several celebrity hunters. The preserve consists of a hundred acres of breeding pens and a three hundred acre hunting area. The owner of the preserve has told me that at any given time there are over 50 bucks that would score 150” or better available in the “hunting” area. How much hunting skill and woodsmanship is required to tag a trophy buck on this preserve? The really funny thing is that when this place is shown on the previously mentioned hunting shows and videos the size of the property and the number of bucks it contains are never mentioned. Could it be that the celebrity hunters know how laughable it is to call hunting? Makes for great video though, and as long as they don’t let the secret out of the bag they can feed their ego by posing with the huge buck they just harvested.<img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle>

&quot;If you can't change your circumstances then you need to change your perspective.&quot;

VBM

RuRu, I am relieved to hear that coonskin caps are still available in some areas of the country. In my home state of Washington they are not so easily obtained. I am also happy to note that we agree on groups like PETA and ALF. I guess the area we don't agree on is preserve hunting. I personally would not hunt a preserve, however, there are many people that have neither the money nor the opportunity to hunt elk in the west. I feel that preserve hunting fills a niche in the scheme of hunting that cannot be filled another way. I am concerned that hunting will go the way of the fur trade with each segment of the hunting fraternity pointing fingers at the others. The trad. bow hunters saying their's is the only truely fair chase method of hunting, the rifle hunters saying bow hunting is cruel and doesn't result in a quick and humane kill, the western hunter saying that hunting near food plots and farms isn't fair chase, the purist saying any guided hunt is just a point and shoot hunt and those that say that preserve hunting is like shooting farm anomals. If we as hunters do not hang together than we shall surely hang separately. Just a little plagerism...lol. I hope that with time and thought and discussion you can begin to see that fighting amongst ourselves can only work against us.