First Elk Hunt, 7 x 7, with pictures
12-14-2002, 10:01 PM
#32
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Scottsdale Arizona USA
Posts: 527
RE: First Elk Hunt, 7 x 7, with pictures
Robert-that was cold! You guys assumed that shooting was involved. How do you know they just don't lay down for the photos. The prices look pretty cheap for actually taking the animal home in a cooler.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
12-14-2002, 10:36 PM
#33
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: McCall Idaho USA
Posts: 753
RE: First Elk Hunt, 7 x 7, with pictures
Nothing personal MARKW but I just took a look at that bull and I have to agree with gleninaz thats no 400 bull, I hope you did'nt get charged by the point. I'd say he's 350 at best, still a real nice bull. I've called in close to 500 elk, so I've also seen a few. I've been scoring elk now for 7 years and am usually a pretty good judge. Good huntn. elknut
12-15-2002, 09:18 PM
#34
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: NW Montana / SW Alberta Rockies
Posts: 3,258
RE: First Elk Hunt, 7 x 7, with pictures
I have followed this thread since it has started and I think some of you guys have responded like such a$$holes and I'm not going to mention names, as most who have responded here are veterans at hunting, but for crying out loud, didn't we all begin at some point?? Don't you know the thrill of turning a child on catching perch or brim and seeing and experiencing the excitement that they experience, or have you lost the sight to see through their eyes. As someone said earlier, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Even though I have reservations about these types of hunts, who the HELL am I to condemn it. I think it was great to see it through Marks eyes and its a road to the great outdoors. It may not be your style or even mine, but I would not of confronted it like that, didn't you start off by catching small fish or even shoot a small deer and think that it was a trophy, and then have some a$$hole pop your bubble such as you and deney the individual of a good hunt in his mind. My method of hunting is different than yours and even though I may agree with your methods of hunting as I do, the same, who the hell do you think you are to cast judgement and belittle him on the excitement that a newbie is willing to share with his experience. I too am surprised at some of the responses and if I was Mark I would of been in your face, by the way my name is Bobby and I just had to respond.
12-15-2002, 09:59 PM
#35
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Scottsdale Arizona USA
Posts: 527
RE: First Elk Hunt, 7 x 7, with pictures
Bobby-You are right and the last jab I took was a little nasty. Tried to keep it positive before that but it is such a joke I couldn't resist.I am an old guy and most of the time I support whatever it takes to get new hunters into the sport. Problem with this type of deal runs deep for those of us who have a hard time believing that it even exists whether a sponsor or not. I meant what I said to Mark and hope he does get out here for elk hunting. On the other hand it may keep other new hunters from getting sucked into paying for the same deal. I started by shooting squirrels but they weren't in a cage.
12-16-2002, 07:47 AM
#36
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: ......
Posts: 3,643
RE: First Elk Hunt, 7 x 7, with pictures
Bobby - That be me you're insinuating, why don't you just say it ??
Markw and I have sent several emails back and forth to one another. We agree on much, but on this we do not.
I still am sticking to what I said - this is little more than killing a cow, not anything like elk hunting. I emailed the outfitter and hunting BBS concerning this, asking how many acres were on this place and no one is responding. Why ? markw gave me some info but I am not going to share those emails.
This is the email I sent Hunting BBS ...
<font color=red>" No topics and/or statements which could be used to reflect poorly on hunting, archery or firearms. Anti-hunting and other posts indicating a stance against the hunting, archery and firearm industry will be removed. </font id=red>
Those are the rules on the Hunting.Net forums. Can you answer me this .. is Old Stone Fence hunting preserve a canned hunt or isn't it ? Yes, its legal under NY laws, but does it reflect poorly on hunting ? Can the anti-hunting crowds use places like this in their attacks against our rights to hunt ?
<http://www.peta-online.org/alert/aut...asp?id=300>
<http://www.wildlifeprotection.net/Ca...index.html>
<http://www.fund.org/cannedhunts/>
<http://www.hsus.org/ace/12017>
Those are web sites where anti-hunting groups attack canned hunts. While some of their claims are not true, the overall opinion that hunting a penned, half tame aniamls isn't hunting.
http://www.huntingoutfitters.com/oldstonefence/
<http://www.fobarehunting.com/ElkBreeding.html>
This site says ...
" Registered Rocky Mountain Elk
Blood Lines From:
*HeavyV * Roy * USA1 *
*Harry * Tremor * Dakota Pride
*Diamond
Top Blood Lines
Bred Cows, Calves, Herd Sires
Free Delivery On:
Breeding Packages in Northeast
Also Quality Whitetail Breeding Stock
Economical Ideas On:
Fencing & Handling Facilities
Dealer for Tightlock & Solidlock Fencing
Also Facility and Fencing Construction
And also Home of the:
Old Stone Fence Hunting Adventures
I submit that Old Fence Hunting Preserve is canned hunting. They raise penned animals for breeding stock and people who want to hunt these same animals can pay a hefty fee, drive in, shoot the animal (remember, no kill no pay) and go home with a "trophy". While legal, this is NOT hunting and its fuel for the anti-hunting groups. Killing a penned elk or deer on places like this preserve is no different than going out to Farmer Brown's field and shooting a cow. Good meat but theres no hunt there and no trophy.
Can you please address this issue ? I have been a member of this board for 3 years, have posted over 5,000 posts but this distrubs me greatly and I think you are violating your own rules for $$$$$$$$ ?"
Maybe reality is the very hunting site we visit is accepting sponsors who violate their own board rules ? Certainly canned hunting or small game farms are bad for hunting - most hunter will agree with that and all non-hunters will. Does money superceed ethics ? Not going to be a popular post this one, but I am claling it like I see it. This place is a farm where they raise elk, mule deer, red stags, white tails, and European boars, and they'll bring in anything you want to shoot - just give them a call. Folks when hunting becomes this then its no longer hunting to me.
Stealthycat's Photo's
Markw and I have sent several emails back and forth to one another. We agree on much, but on this we do not.
I still am sticking to what I said - this is little more than killing a cow, not anything like elk hunting. I emailed the outfitter and hunting BBS concerning this, asking how many acres were on this place and no one is responding. Why ? markw gave me some info but I am not going to share those emails.
This is the email I sent Hunting BBS ...
<font color=red>" No topics and/or statements which could be used to reflect poorly on hunting, archery or firearms. Anti-hunting and other posts indicating a stance against the hunting, archery and firearm industry will be removed. </font id=red>
Those are the rules on the Hunting.Net forums. Can you answer me this .. is Old Stone Fence hunting preserve a canned hunt or isn't it ? Yes, its legal under NY laws, but does it reflect poorly on hunting ? Can the anti-hunting crowds use places like this in their attacks against our rights to hunt ?
<http://www.peta-online.org/alert/aut...asp?id=300>
<http://www.wildlifeprotection.net/Ca...index.html>
<http://www.fund.org/cannedhunts/>
<http://www.hsus.org/ace/12017>
Those are web sites where anti-hunting groups attack canned hunts. While some of their claims are not true, the overall opinion that hunting a penned, half tame aniamls isn't hunting.
http://www.huntingoutfitters.com/oldstonefence/
<http://www.fobarehunting.com/ElkBreeding.html>
This site says ...
" Registered Rocky Mountain Elk
Blood Lines From:
*HeavyV * Roy * USA1 *
*Harry * Tremor * Dakota Pride
*Diamond
Top Blood Lines
Bred Cows, Calves, Herd Sires
Free Delivery On:
Breeding Packages in Northeast
Also Quality Whitetail Breeding Stock
Economical Ideas On:
Fencing & Handling Facilities
Dealer for Tightlock & Solidlock Fencing
Also Facility and Fencing Construction
And also Home of the:
Old Stone Fence Hunting Adventures
I submit that Old Fence Hunting Preserve is canned hunting. They raise penned animals for breeding stock and people who want to hunt these same animals can pay a hefty fee, drive in, shoot the animal (remember, no kill no pay) and go home with a "trophy". While legal, this is NOT hunting and its fuel for the anti-hunting groups. Killing a penned elk or deer on places like this preserve is no different than going out to Farmer Brown's field and shooting a cow. Good meat but theres no hunt there and no trophy.
Can you please address this issue ? I have been a member of this board for 3 years, have posted over 5,000 posts but this distrubs me greatly and I think you are violating your own rules for $$$$$$$$ ?"
Maybe reality is the very hunting site we visit is accepting sponsors who violate their own board rules ? Certainly canned hunting or small game farms are bad for hunting - most hunter will agree with that and all non-hunters will. Does money superceed ethics ? Not going to be a popular post this one, but I am claling it like I see it. This place is a farm where they raise elk, mule deer, red stags, white tails, and European boars, and they'll bring in anything you want to shoot - just give them a call. Folks when hunting becomes this then its no longer hunting to me.
Stealthycat's Photo's
12-16-2002, 10:54 AM
#37
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 259
RE: First Elk Hunt, 7 x 7, with pictures
I think stealthycat is absolutely right about the danger that these "preserve" hunts pose when someone tries to pass them off as a legitimate form of hunting. I couldn't care less what PETA thinks as they are going to oppose us no matter what, but I do care a great deal about what non-hunters think about our sport. Is a high-fenced game preserve the image you want non-hunters to have of hunting? When non-hunting coworkers hear that you spent your vacation hunting elk do you want them picturing you shooting a pen-raised bull that was wearing a red ear tag bearing his pedigree identification number? If you say that you don't care what non-hunters think, I'll tell you that what they think should mean everything to you. Non-hunters outnumber hunters, and anti-hunters for that matter, by a very wide margin. Non-hunters will decide the future of hunting.
As stealthy has said these operations are little more than farms, and killing an animal there is comparable to shooting a farmer's beef cattle. That alone should be reason for any hunter to oppose their existence, and to shine the light of truth on any "trophy" that comes from one of these places. Add in the factor of CWD and I can't see how any legitimate case can be made for their continued existence.
Some have made the argument that we as hunters should support any legal means of harvesting an animal. They are wrong. The future of the pastime we love depends on us being self policing, and generating a positive image to the non-hunting public.
These "preserves" are playgrounds for people with no true hunting skill or ambition. People that are seeking the quick road to hanging a trophy on the wall. People that put their ego above their ethics. People that kill animals on these places are not true hunters, and it should outrage every one of us that are that these places exist and that they try to pass themselves and their "trophies" off as legitimate.
BTW - I have nothing against outfitters or guides. Preserve hunting is in no way comparable to using a guide or outfitter.
"If you can't change your circumstances then you need to change your perspective."
Edited by - RuRu12 on 12/16/2002 12:04:14
As stealthy has said these operations are little more than farms, and killing an animal there is comparable to shooting a farmer's beef cattle. That alone should be reason for any hunter to oppose their existence, and to shine the light of truth on any "trophy" that comes from one of these places. Add in the factor of CWD and I can't see how any legitimate case can be made for their continued existence.
Some have made the argument that we as hunters should support any legal means of harvesting an animal. They are wrong. The future of the pastime we love depends on us being self policing, and generating a positive image to the non-hunting public.
These "preserves" are playgrounds for people with no true hunting skill or ambition. People that are seeking the quick road to hanging a trophy on the wall. People that put their ego above their ethics. People that kill animals on these places are not true hunters, and it should outrage every one of us that are that these places exist and that they try to pass themselves and their "trophies" off as legitimate.
BTW - I have nothing against outfitters or guides. Preserve hunting is in no way comparable to using a guide or outfitter.
"If you can't change your circumstances then you need to change your perspective."
Edited by - RuRu12 on 12/16/2002 12:04:14
12-16-2002, 09:44 PM
#38
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: NW Montana / SW Alberta Rockies
Posts: 3,258
RE: First Elk Hunt, 7 x 7, with pictures
Stealth, your like a Pit bull dog, you get you teeth in something and you don't let up and your research shows that you have done your share of homework and I sincerily respect that, it says something about your character and integrity and I am not doubting your verasity on the argument. I do not know what has transpired between you and Mark by E-mail as I can only base my statements on what has been posted here on the board. If you two have kissed and made up,thats just Great. When the issue came on the ballot here in Montana regarding canned hunts I voted against it. So I am not one you are trying to convince.
I do "NOT" think it was correct in circumcizeing this guy on the board, the hunt Mark went on was a LEGAL HUNT in the state of NY, your going after the wrong guy and suggest that if this type of hunting bothers you or any others on the Band Wagon that much, then make the changes at the State/Provincial level to get these types hunts removed.
The key words here Stealth, is "Reflect Poorly". Who defines this?
I know how angry one may get to abolish this type of hunting because a lot of us are well seasoned hunters and have chewed dirt, briars and deal with the harsh winters, get kicked and the long hours in assiociated with our sport,(just a few obsticles) only to have someone shoot game within fences and make it appear to others that it may seem that it is really that easy, but we know how hard that we sweated to get this animal. It just does't come that easy, later on, Bobby
I do "NOT" think it was correct in circumcizeing this guy on the board, the hunt Mark went on was a LEGAL HUNT in the state of NY, your going after the wrong guy and suggest that if this type of hunting bothers you or any others on the Band Wagon that much, then make the changes at the State/Provincial level to get these types hunts removed.
The key words here Stealth, is "Reflect Poorly". Who defines this?
I know how angry one may get to abolish this type of hunting because a lot of us are well seasoned hunters and have chewed dirt, briars and deal with the harsh winters, get kicked and the long hours in assiociated with our sport,(just a few obsticles) only to have someone shoot game within fences and make it appear to others that it may seem that it is really that easy, but we know how hard that we sweated to get this animal. It just does't come that easy, later on, Bobby
12-21-2002, 05:45 PM
#40
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Tacoma Washington USA
Posts: 48
RE: First Elk Hunt, 7 x 7, with pictures
Well Stealth, I have news for you. PETA is not anti-hunting...it is anti-meat eating. It appears that Mark wasn't interested in paying someone else to kill his meat for him. In other words all you great hunters that don't score and end up buying your meat at the supermarket ARE willing to pay someone else to kill it for you. Think about that for a moment. Of course if you are God's gift to hunting and NEVER fail to get a game animal then this doesn't apply to you. PETA will NOT be satified until all meat eating ceases. All who eat and enjoy meat had better wake up and support one another or we will end up being vegans like the PETA bunch. I don't always score on game and I am willing to pay for meat, however, if I had the money I would rather eat elk than beef. Apparently some of you folks would not.