RIFLE SUCCESS POLL
12-01-2002, 07:35 PM
#11
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rocky Mountains, Colorado
Posts: 1,964
RE: RIFLE SUCCESS POLL
ArcticBowMan (moderator), Fine by me to run a scoreboard thread like this one, kind of interesting to see what people are shooting and what with, and guessing what their annual hunting budget must be.
You got to admit though, that for someone with the "hunter" mindset versus that of a "shooter" The "long on bone and short on meat" comment kinda hits close to home....
GOT ELK?
When the elk hunters leave the woods to go home, some got elk and some don't. I'm betting the cross section of rifles and calibers carried by each group is about the same, ranging from fly weight-barely legal on up to shoulder howitzers.
The CRITICAL SUCCESS FACTORS (ruling out dumb luck) for the SUCCESSFUL HUNTERS was their STRATEGY AND TACTICS not their rifle nor its caliber (Leaving out the bullet/wounding arguments for now). Assuming the readership is up to doing their 3R's:Read'n, Rit'n, and 'Rmitic, you tell me which is better:
------------------------------------
'BONES ONLY:
1 cow elk, 375HH, Federal 300gr Nosler Partition, 210 yards.
-----------------OR-----------------
'BONES WITH SOME MEAT ON 'EM:
Camped just off graded forest service road, myself, 5 hunters, 1 chef. Scouted 5 days, found large herd staying in large basin, identified direction of expected hunter pressure and elk's escape route, used gps to plant 6 hunters stands across the "escape gap". GAME DAY! Got up at 1:00am, good breakfast, left by 230am, every camp passed was dark - they'll be late, go direct and flush the elk our way. Forced march, circling to far side of basin, pitch black, gps'd each hunter into his stand by 430am an hour before first light. Red eastern sky, a hunter's wait, sweet! Legal hour! Distant shots close in like approaching thunderstorm. One shot closer, then 75 head moving full out stampede right through my boys, 2 down. Smaller groups follow in disarray - pick and choose - strategy & tactics - it's done by 1030am BUT the work of packing 'em out (draft horse) is done by dark the NEXT day, in-camp meat processing and merriment done two days after that! Didn't shoot 6th elk, though could have easily, had more than enough meat.
2 bulls (4x4 and 5x5) & 3 cows = 2 at 210 yards - standing bracing off an aspens (375HH-300grPartitions)(338Mag-250grPartitions); 20 & 35 yards (timber stampede) standing offhand (338mag-250gr.)(7mmMag-170gr), 1 at 150 yards (sitting shooting over the knees (7mmMag-165gr).
------------------------------------
I'm betting greenhorns AND veterans's alike can learn something about BOTH HUNTING and SHOOTING of off a string of posts if they have some "meat on their bones." Plus, non-hunting public won't see it as a scoreboard with no human/nature context. Won't work though, if people are too lazy to compose something.
Your turn.
EKM
Good judgement comes from bad experience! Half of elk hunting is knowing what NOT to do!
You got to admit though, that for someone with the "hunter" mindset versus that of a "shooter" The "long on bone and short on meat" comment kinda hits close to home....
GOT ELK?
When the elk hunters leave the woods to go home, some got elk and some don't. I'm betting the cross section of rifles and calibers carried by each group is about the same, ranging from fly weight-barely legal on up to shoulder howitzers.
The CRITICAL SUCCESS FACTORS (ruling out dumb luck) for the SUCCESSFUL HUNTERS was their STRATEGY AND TACTICS not their rifle nor its caliber (Leaving out the bullet/wounding arguments for now). Assuming the readership is up to doing their 3R's:Read'n, Rit'n, and 'Rmitic, you tell me which is better:
------------------------------------
'BONES ONLY:
1 cow elk, 375HH, Federal 300gr Nosler Partition, 210 yards.
-----------------OR-----------------
'BONES WITH SOME MEAT ON 'EM:
Camped just off graded forest service road, myself, 5 hunters, 1 chef. Scouted 5 days, found large herd staying in large basin, identified direction of expected hunter pressure and elk's escape route, used gps to plant 6 hunters stands across the "escape gap". GAME DAY! Got up at 1:00am, good breakfast, left by 230am, every camp passed was dark - they'll be late, go direct and flush the elk our way. Forced march, circling to far side of basin, pitch black, gps'd each hunter into his stand by 430am an hour before first light. Red eastern sky, a hunter's wait, sweet! Legal hour! Distant shots close in like approaching thunderstorm. One shot closer, then 75 head moving full out stampede right through my boys, 2 down. Smaller groups follow in disarray - pick and choose - strategy & tactics - it's done by 1030am BUT the work of packing 'em out (draft horse) is done by dark the NEXT day, in-camp meat processing and merriment done two days after that! Didn't shoot 6th elk, though could have easily, had more than enough meat.
2 bulls (4x4 and 5x5) & 3 cows = 2 at 210 yards - standing bracing off an aspens (375HH-300grPartitions)(338Mag-250grPartitions); 20 & 35 yards (timber stampede) standing offhand (338mag-250gr.)(7mmMag-170gr), 1 at 150 yards (sitting shooting over the knees (7mmMag-165gr).
------------------------------------
I'm betting greenhorns AND veterans's alike can learn something about BOTH HUNTING and SHOOTING of off a string of posts if they have some "meat on their bones." Plus, non-hunting public won't see it as a scoreboard with no human/nature context. Won't work though, if people are too lazy to compose something.
Your turn.
EKM
Good judgement comes from bad experience! Half of elk hunting is knowing what NOT to do!
12-01-2002, 09:01 PM
#12
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Jackson Mississippi USA
Posts: 10
RE: RIFLE SUCCESS POLL
ElkKampMaster, An elk drive, with 20 other guys in the valley, sounds like a dream hunt! (about as much fun as parking at the mall in December) That hunt should be on the BLOOPERS of 'hunting'. And you talk about 'hunting' vs. shooting! If your version of hunting is sitting in your spot waiting for the "stampeding herd" being run through the gauntlet, to run by you, I wouldnt want to see your version of shooting. LOL! All I learned from your post is not to hunt with you. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
You and beaverhack should go hang out with your mules!
Edited by - JEDD on 12/02/2002 00:24:49
You and beaverhack should go hang out with your mules!
Edited by - JEDD on 12/02/2002 00:24:49
12-02-2002, 12:08 AM
#14
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 358
RE: RIFLE SUCCESS POLL
quote
"ElkKampMaster, An elk drive, with 20 other guys in the valley, sounds like a dream hunt! (about as much fun as parking at the mall in December) That hunt should be on the BLOOPERS of 'hunting' etc. etc. etc. etc."
ditto & me thinks he's also also a little bit full of himself. gg.
"When I was born I was so surprised I couldn't talk for a year and a half"
"ElkKampMaster, An elk drive, with 20 other guys in the valley, sounds like a dream hunt! (about as much fun as parking at the mall in December) That hunt should be on the BLOOPERS of 'hunting' etc. etc. etc. etc."
ditto & me thinks he's also also a little bit full of himself. gg.
"When I was born I was so surprised I couldn't talk for a year and a half"
12-02-2002, 12:47 AM
#15
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rocky Mountains, Colorado
Posts: 1,964
RE: RIFLE SUCCESS POLL
Jedd, Congrats on the whitetail buck. 60 yards sounds like a long shot with a shotgun. You must be a pretty good hand with it! Oh, by the way, how did you and the buck come to be 60 yards apart in the woods? Might be interesting for folks to know. You weren't on private land right there in your own "back yard" were you?
Especially on U.S. Forest Service land out West, predator's got to be smarter than prey and smarter than the competition! I'll take that blooper year after year if it were available, thanks! Had some new folks down the road from our camp, from Alabama, friendly folks. Arrived late, didn't scout, hadn't been to the far side of the bowl, didn't know the lay of the land, couldn't guess which way the elk might go, didn't get out of bed in time, couldn't navigate in the dark, hunted 5 days, didn't get a shot, weren't looking forward to the long trip home with no meat. Tight bunch, all 3 used 7mmMag 150gr - kills 0, distance n/a -- now that's a blooper.
Side note: wasn't any guarantee the elk would still be in the bowl, or move in the direction I guessed, or that the other hunters (don't remember telling you how many there were) would be lazy, sleep in, and cut direct into the bowl instead of going around it to the far side or off somewhere else, or that we might be 300 yards off the mark on our set up. It's not very often things go just right, but hardwork, strategy and tactics help the odds because Bambi popping and elk hunting aren't the same! Now an outfitter positioning paying clients like we were would have received high marks and a tip, Hmmmm ..... you been wapiti hunting out west?
Well sounds like better not be "damaging the thread" by talking about trivial stuff like strategy and tactics no matter how tight packed the paragraph, pictures are okay though - I'll work hard at dumbing this up a bit so it fits the mold y'all be comfortable with.
------------------------------------
Blooper Elk Hunt (estimates on weight):
5x5 bull - 625lbs - 150 yards - 7mmMag 170 gr
4x4 bull - 525lbs - 210 yards - 338mag 250 gr Nosler Partition
lg dry cow-500lbs - 210 yards - 375HH 300 gr Nosler Partition
cow 450lbs - 20 yards - 7mmMag 165 gr
cow 450lbs - 35 yards - 338mag 250 gr Nosler Partition
EKM
Good judgement comes from bad experience! Half of elk hunting is knowing what NOT to do!
Edited by - ELKampMaster on 12/02/2002 01:51:55
Edited by - ELKampMaster on 12/02/2002 02:04:47
Especially on U.S. Forest Service land out West, predator's got to be smarter than prey and smarter than the competition! I'll take that blooper year after year if it were available, thanks! Had some new folks down the road from our camp, from Alabama, friendly folks. Arrived late, didn't scout, hadn't been to the far side of the bowl, didn't know the lay of the land, couldn't guess which way the elk might go, didn't get out of bed in time, couldn't navigate in the dark, hunted 5 days, didn't get a shot, weren't looking forward to the long trip home with no meat. Tight bunch, all 3 used 7mmMag 150gr - kills 0, distance n/a -- now that's a blooper.
Side note: wasn't any guarantee the elk would still be in the bowl, or move in the direction I guessed, or that the other hunters (don't remember telling you how many there were) would be lazy, sleep in, and cut direct into the bowl instead of going around it to the far side or off somewhere else, or that we might be 300 yards off the mark on our set up. It's not very often things go just right, but hardwork, strategy and tactics help the odds because Bambi popping and elk hunting aren't the same! Now an outfitter positioning paying clients like we were would have received high marks and a tip, Hmmmm ..... you been wapiti hunting out west?
Well sounds like better not be "damaging the thread" by talking about trivial stuff like strategy and tactics no matter how tight packed the paragraph, pictures are okay though - I'll work hard at dumbing this up a bit so it fits the mold y'all be comfortable with.
------------------------------------
Blooper Elk Hunt (estimates on weight):
5x5 bull - 625lbs - 150 yards - 7mmMag 170 gr
4x4 bull - 525lbs - 210 yards - 338mag 250 gr Nosler Partition
lg dry cow-500lbs - 210 yards - 375HH 300 gr Nosler Partition
cow 450lbs - 20 yards - 7mmMag 165 gr
cow 450lbs - 35 yards - 338mag 250 gr Nosler Partition
EKM
Good judgement comes from bad experience! Half of elk hunting is knowing what NOT to do!
Edited by - ELKampMaster on 12/02/2002 01:51:55
Edited by - ELKampMaster on 12/02/2002 02:04:47
12-02-2002, 07:48 AM
#16
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 22
RE: RIFLE SUCCESS POLL
Elkcamp, sounds like legit'mate wapiti hunting to me, can't see what the fuss is all about! Sure yer group appreciat'd been in right place at the right time! Likes the meat on the bone version m'self, but donts have time to embellish it fer yall this morn'n.
Cow Elk - 80 yards - .30-06 - 180gr. partitions
Edited by - Rackem on 12/02/2002 09:01:46
Cow Elk - 80 yards - .30-06 - 180gr. partitions
Edited by - Rackem on 12/02/2002 09:01:46
12-02-2002, 12:03 PM
#17
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Highlands Out there! Canada
Posts: 100
RE: RIFLE SUCCESS POLL
ABM - Wow, thats quite the Rudolf harvest you guys have there! That's awsome your Dad got a whopper! Did you scare the velvet off yours or what?
ElkKM - It's almost the end of the season and we've heard the long version of most everyone's stories and seen their pics before....it's great reading about them and seeing them, but that's not what this thread is about...get it?...everyone else seems to, except you.
That's great you got your clients some meat and got paid...I only hunt public land, have never used a guide and don't plan to...if I did pay for a hunt and it was a gongshow like you described, it would be the last...reminds me of a photo>>> http://community.webshots.com/photo/...9092MqvNbtzJqJ
Edited by - Mt^Boy on 12/02/2002 13:06:51
ElkKM - It's almost the end of the season and we've heard the long version of most everyone's stories and seen their pics before....it's great reading about them and seeing them, but that's not what this thread is about...get it?...everyone else seems to, except you.
That's great you got your clients some meat and got paid...I only hunt public land, have never used a guide and don't plan to...if I did pay for a hunt and it was a gongshow like you described, it would be the last...reminds me of a photo>>> http://community.webshots.com/photo/...9092MqvNbtzJqJ
Edited by - Mt^Boy on 12/02/2002 13:06:51
12-02-2002, 06:03 PM
#18
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Fairbanks, Alaska
Posts: 1,665
RE: RIFLE SUCCESS POLL
MtBoy, I'm with you on the guided deal. I don't think I would feel as much appreciation for the game if I had somebody walk me through the whole process. I have yet to go on a guided hunt, and have yet to go with an empty freezer for several years now.
Beaver, you said you see a whole lot of bone and not a lot of meat? I can guarantee you that the meat is more important to us than a rack, and that is true any day of the week! My rack from that bou is sitting in the shed getting no attention. Those steaks, burger, sausage and all the jerky I made is what gets the attention in this house! We don't pay guides thousands of dollars, we don't pay taxidermists thousands of dollars and we hardly ever give a penny to a meat processor with the exception of some occasional sausage. Does that make you feel better about all the bone and none of the meat you see?
Beaver, you said you see a whole lot of bone and not a lot of meat? I can guarantee you that the meat is more important to us than a rack, and that is true any day of the week! My rack from that bou is sitting in the shed getting no attention. Those steaks, burger, sausage and all the jerky I made is what gets the attention in this house! We don't pay guides thousands of dollars, we don't pay taxidermists thousands of dollars and we hardly ever give a penny to a meat processor with the exception of some occasional sausage. Does that make you feel better about all the bone and none of the meat you see?
12-03-2002, 12:27 AM
#19
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rocky Mountains, Colorado
Posts: 1,964
RE: RIFLE SUCCESS POLL
Much to y'alls joy, I hope this will be my last post to this thread. Was a mistake to take to suggest anything but the company line. Hence my farewell address:
-----------------------------------
Reading for detail is an enlightening thing.
ABM & Mt^Boy: For the benefit of the Colorado Dept of Wildlife I am not an outfitter as we all split the cost of elk camp. I said "Now an outfitter positioning paying clients like we were (positioned)would have received high marks and a tip...."
So about time to come down off of the outfitter highhorse!
-----------------------------------
Mt^Boy: Quote: "....we've heard the long version of most everyone's stories and seen their pics before....it's great reading about them and seeing them, but that's not what this thread is about...get it?...everyone else seems to, except you."
"Long stories", that'd be me (14 lines). [1 story, then much defense]
"And seen their pix before," that would be Mt^Boy and ABM!
Everybody gets it but me? What about you guys?
I think the pot is calling the kettle black on that one!
------------------------------------
ABM: Caribou hunt sounds absolutely great, seen your pictures, looks barren with no timber for them to hide in - excellent. Huge herds migrating, following generational migration routes, maybe even predictable - excellent, 7 hunters taking 14 animals - excellent! Of course, applying "what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander" y'all better be careful as lot of folks would call it "gongshow-blooper-obscene heaven" what with you outfoxing and harvesting those poor 'bou at such a prolific rate! Where is this "meat hole" anyway?
Sounds like my style!
-------------------------------------
ABM: Dangerous To Be Translating Beaver Jack, I could end up with the politically correct and the non-politically correct coming after me from both sides, but since things have sunk to this level.....
Last read, didn't see any reference to racks or rack hunting at all.
Last read, did see reference to meat and bone. Bones ain't racks.
MEAT=The hunt without emphasizing the killing part: strategy & tactics and whatever else it takes to get out there & on to the game.
BONE=Just the shooting part=elk, 600 lb, 60 yards, 7mm Mag 170 powerpoint, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, ad nauseum.
Judge Judy doesn't appear to be alone in "shooting from the hip" without pay'n attention to the full set of facts.
-----------------------------------
GoodGuy, thought your post was the best one in the thread! Had both meat and bone on it. I place the elk camp experience above either the hunting or the shooting-believe it or not. When I said "my boys" I meant it literally! Getting new blood out into the elk woods is one of my prime missions. Successful elk harvest is just a side benefit.
-----------------------------------
Adios, I hope..... Don't forget to start twisting things around as soon as possible. [Note: Expect to be edited-made copy]
EKM
Good judgement comes from bad experience! Half of elk hunting is knowing what NOT to do!
-----------------------------------
Reading for detail is an enlightening thing.
ABM & Mt^Boy: For the benefit of the Colorado Dept of Wildlife I am not an outfitter as we all split the cost of elk camp. I said "Now an outfitter positioning paying clients like we were (positioned)would have received high marks and a tip...."
So about time to come down off of the outfitter highhorse!
-----------------------------------
Mt^Boy: Quote: "....we've heard the long version of most everyone's stories and seen their pics before....it's great reading about them and seeing them, but that's not what this thread is about...get it?...everyone else seems to, except you."
"Long stories", that'd be me (14 lines). [1 story, then much defense]
"And seen their pix before," that would be Mt^Boy and ABM!
Everybody gets it but me? What about you guys?
I think the pot is calling the kettle black on that one!
------------------------------------
ABM: Caribou hunt sounds absolutely great, seen your pictures, looks barren with no timber for them to hide in - excellent. Huge herds migrating, following generational migration routes, maybe even predictable - excellent, 7 hunters taking 14 animals - excellent! Of course, applying "what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander" y'all better be careful as lot of folks would call it "gongshow-blooper-obscene heaven" what with you outfoxing and harvesting those poor 'bou at such a prolific rate! Where is this "meat hole" anyway?
Sounds like my style!
-------------------------------------
ABM: Dangerous To Be Translating Beaver Jack, I could end up with the politically correct and the non-politically correct coming after me from both sides, but since things have sunk to this level.....
Last read, didn't see any reference to racks or rack hunting at all.
Last read, did see reference to meat and bone. Bones ain't racks.
MEAT=The hunt without emphasizing the killing part: strategy & tactics and whatever else it takes to get out there & on to the game.
BONE=Just the shooting part=elk, 600 lb, 60 yards, 7mm Mag 170 powerpoint, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, ad nauseum.
Judge Judy doesn't appear to be alone in "shooting from the hip" without pay'n attention to the full set of facts.
-----------------------------------
GoodGuy, thought your post was the best one in the thread! Had both meat and bone on it. I place the elk camp experience above either the hunting or the shooting-believe it or not. When I said "my boys" I meant it literally! Getting new blood out into the elk woods is one of my prime missions. Successful elk harvest is just a side benefit.
-----------------------------------
Adios, I hope..... Don't forget to start twisting things around as soon as possible. [Note: Expect to be edited-made copy]
EKM
Good judgement comes from bad experience! Half of elk hunting is knowing what NOT to do!
12-03-2002, 09:27 AM
#20
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 22
RE: RIFLE SUCCESS POLL
Adios EKM,
Mt^Boy, said yer lookin' to learn 'bout calibers, see yer workin' on it over in the 7mm vs 06 discuss'n - now thet you got some data from this here thread fer a reference - what's yer conclusion?
Mt^Boy, said yer lookin' to learn 'bout calibers, see yer workin' on it over in the 7mm vs 06 discuss'n - now thet you got some data from this here thread fer a reference - what's yer conclusion?